I think that making one girl study more has less of an effect on her self esteem than taking a carton of ice cream out after dinner, scooping a bowl for you thin daughter, and not giving a bowl to the fat daughter because she is fat. Doing so would be a reminder of her that she is overweight, and I am quite sure she gets enough reminders during the course of the day as an American teenager.

Sure, the D student needs to study more. But the fat one can't be the only one to not have ice cream... the whole family needs to not have it. Otherwise you are singling her out.

I think the difference is that, IMO, making one study more = less of an impact on mental health than not giving her dessert because she's fat [while the rest of the family eats it.] "Time for you to leave the table so we can eat dessert." You'd really do that?

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

p.s. I don't consider it "catering to" feelings, but rather being sensitive to them. Same reason I wrote my disclaimer about use of the word "fat" because some people get really pissy when you call them fat :-)

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

PINK: isn't being fat a choice? END PINK

seriously: I used the vegetarian example because it's what I grew up with. I became a vegetarian; sometimes my mom nuked a veggie burger for me while they had meat and sometimes we all had stir fry with tempeh rather than stir fry with chicken. Even her just buying + making a veggie burger for me = family adaptation.
Maybe it's not the best example (shrugs) but how would you deal with the fat daughter vs skinny daughter question? Would you feed them differently? Would you feed yourself differently? ]

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

Ok so herein lies the heart of the issue for me. I run a group for folks with binge eating issues. This brings together males and females and folks from every weight category. If you were to look at any of their histories or ask any of them in person they would tell you that it is precisely because we do not cater to feelings and emotions that the `root' issues do not get resolved. You can give someone surgery, the Bernstein diet or any other weightloss program but in the end, the vast majority gain all the weight back plus some. What folks come to realize is that no matter what they do on the outside, if they don't fix what ails them on the inside the problems persist. Eventually, some will come to see that if they want to improve the overall quality of their lives they have to begin to look at their whole health (back to the previous point about balance). Folks eventually come to understand that when they were at their thinnest, they were not any happier- that it did not in fact `buy' them what they were looking for. Now though they have added feeling like a failure on top of everything and typically this happens over and over again. That is why the industry makes the money they do- it is shame and symptom based and doesn't fix what is really wrong.

The vast majority of obesity clinics have no mental health staff within them. They work on the numbers, and lifestyle issues without typically addressing the mental health issues. For many, the research suggests that 10-15% weightloss buys the reduced health risks (yes, that little). This is a way more attainable health goal than telling someone they need to lose 1/2 to 2/3 of their whole body which is what so many family docs will recommend. How discouraging is that! If however they embrace the `small initial loss for health gain' philosophy this can often represent some success, they feel better about themselves and then may be more invested in taking care of themselves in a myriad of other ways. As well, once folks are nutritionally stable you get a much clearer sense of what is at the heart of things. For many, there is an underlying issue such as depression or trauma (e.g. rape) that preceded problematic eating. Fixing these with a diet simply won't work in the long run.

The other issue for me is around bullying and teasing. In the group we talk about getting into some form of an exercise regime which is typically walking. You would be shocked at how cruel people treat those that are fat and feel absolutely entitled to do so. People will come back and report they were called names by people driving by or had food thrown at them. Talk about disincentive to get out there.

I think I'm with Khai on the whole vegetarian thing. If a healthy meal is planned and daughter A doesn't want to dig that because it has chicken, but is willing to come up with an easy substitute that doesn't involve changing the rest of the dinner; I'd be fine with that. I'd make fun of my daughter for being a vegetarian, but it would all be in good fun.

Now if the fat daughter were also the D student, I'd feel really bad for her and I'm not sure what I'd do, but for the sake of argument lets say they are two separate sister sets that simply live next door to each other. I'd make the D student study longer. I wouldn't give the fat one ice cream, if the rest of us were going to have it I'd wait for a more appropriate time when the fat daughter isn't right there. I don't think the whole family should abstain from the wonderful enigma that is iced cream. Just like the whole family shouldn't have to read or study while the D student is doing homework. I don't treat them as different, each daughter has a deficiency, each deficiency is remedied by an appropriate action.

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When someone pulls laws out of their @$$, all we end up with are laws that smell like sh!t. -Skippy

Like I said earlier, my knowledge of eating disorders of any kind is quite limited. Since I have no direct experience with them I wouldn't be able to reasonably comment one way or another.

I will say that these cases are not the ones I am addressing however, at least not in our 'two daughters' hypothetical case study. I am referring to a daughter that perhaps weighs 150-160 and should weigh 130. 20 lbs @ 150 is about 13% and I don't think that is unreasonable.

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When someone pulls laws out of their @$$, all we end up with are laws that smell like sh!t. -Skippy

That would be fine [with me at least].

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

Abstaining from Edy's, Bryers, et al.??? Why do you hate ice cream? You must be a bigot.

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When someone pulls laws out of their @$$, all we end up with are laws that smell like sh!t. -Skippy

Nothing tastes as good as thin feels.

I can remember having ice cream two times in the past couple months ...I had one of those mini, single serving Ben and Jerry's cherry Garcia 2 wks ago. And I had some chocolate ice cream one weekend when my brother was home. life w/ eating disorder = very good memory for food things

yogurt tastes just as good as ice cream.

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

Then you, Madam, have never had 10 servings of Creme` Brulee in one sitting :)

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When someone pulls laws out of their @$$, all we end up with are laws that smell like sh!t. -Skippy

well good luck with that approach when you have a daughter. That is the very scenario that gets things rolling- benevolent criticism.

two daughters- one family dinner- both girls given the opportunity to sort out their own hunger and satiety (fullness) cues. no diet talk.

Hence why I hope I have sons... I don't even do well when girls cry for joy, much less paying for weddings, etc.

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When someone pulls laws out of their @$$, all we end up with are laws that smell like sh!t. -Skippy

My question in response is: what happens when one daughter is mindful and stays at 130 but the other one doesn't stop eating and gets to 150?

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When someone pulls laws out of their @$$, all we end up with are laws that smell like sh!t. -Skippy

So we have now come full circle, back to the place where we started...what if her nose wasn't quite right?

You let her sort out how to attend to her health and not so specifically her weight....not make her mind....

The best weight is a stable weight even if it is above what you would like it to be. if you cannot do this, the issue is yours not hers. Regardless, your job is to love her at any weight.

For the record daughters are wonderful- complicated but worth every moment. Boys are equally wonderful but different, again worth every moment.

Thanks for the brain sex:)

alison

Never been thanked for brain sex before :)

My guess is if I have a daughter it will most likely become my issue then. Hopefully she never has to deal with weight or health issues but I would feel responsible for them up to a reasonable point. Similar to if my daughter started smoking, even if she were making the decision on her own (it is her health), at some point the foot should get put down. I guess thats just my opinion though. I just feel it would be my responsibility to make sure she is doing all she can to put her best foot forward.

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When someone pulls laws out of their @$$, all we end up with are laws that smell like sh!t. -Skippy

Feeling sick from eating loads of sweets; yup; sounds like a blast.

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

I never mentioned the after effects, just the sweetness of the eating it. Much the same as hot Krispy Kreme donuts!

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When someone pulls laws out of their @$$, all we end up with are laws that smell like sh!t. -Skippy

Alison, what do you think about my realization yesterday that women must be responsible for some of these ads? Isn't that a huge problem? (that women are responsible, not my realization of it). Or are they just more "victims" in the culture of "well, that's what women are supposed to look like" ?

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

I agree with you completely. In fact I think if women finally understood that we could have influence and then got together to say `we won't buy your products if you use emaciated women in your ads', things would change. Already in the runway fashion industry some countries have opted for minimal health standards (minimal BMI and a recent health check with their docs) in their models. I like to think women had a hand in that. For more mainstream changes though, women would have to decide that this isn't the beauty ideal we aspire to and then they'd have to buy the products of those companies that follow through e.g. Dove (even though they also produce Axe- nuff said).

I'm laughing about how far we are from talking about exercise !
Speaking bluntly, I always thought the fashion world was dominated by gay men who want to de-emphasize women's curves and make them more mannish. A woman in my tri club just did her first ironman in 12:22 and she's not a stick.
I'm trying to find the balance between exercise and lifestyle, between a healthy diet and self-denial.
I don't think a lot of men see the pressure women are under in our culture. For example, when you tell most people it was nearly impossible for women to get a credit card in 1970, they just don't believe you.

thanks for your kind words.
too thin vs obesity, the eternal western cultural question.
Our culture seems to have turned over it's mirror to people selling products.
I think have more exercise and health classes in schools is a start.
I keep telling people they can do triathlons too but the idea seems overwhelming to them.
I've always hated the NBC ironman coverage because they make endurance sports seem so hard. I've never seen an interview on NBC's Kona shows with a participant saying, " I couldn't swim across the pool so I got a coach. I joined a masters swim club that was so supportive. I had to slowly build up. It took me years to get to this level ; exercising every day make me feel good every day. I don't have to take high blood pressure medicine like everyone else my age. I'm going to feel good during my last few years alive."
I tell ya, when they put me in charge of the world, everything will be better.

you are completely right. People with eating disorders are willing ( aware or not ) participants in their illness. That's the good news because they can slowly change their thinking. I think there is a lot of rage behind eating disorders. People have eating disorders for different reasons. It's best to get professional help if an eating disorder is suspected.
thanks for the kind words . My daughter is doing great today !
I'm just happy we can talk about things like this today !

Giorgio Armani stopped using models under a BMI of 18 after Ana Carolina Reston died from complications of anorexia weighing 88 lbs. A number of designers have also followed his lead. I think what tigerchik said earlier is part of the huge problem. She said she was surprised at the reaction she got that men didn't necessarily favor extremely thin women. Granted some men do, some men also favor obese women; to each their own when it comes to sexual attraction I suppose. Generally speaking though, men seem to appreciate women of all body types. If they didn't J-Lo wouldn't have had so much fame for that green dress...

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When someone pulls laws out of their @$$, all we end up with are laws that smell like sh!t. -Skippy

I'd like to think that through the lifelong promotion of a reasonably healthy diet and an active lifestyle, this would not be an issue. That's cheating wrt your question though.

No - I wouldn't treat the kids (significantly) differently (accepting the fact that it's pretty much impossible to treat any two children exactly the same). I also refuse to vilify any sort of foods. There's nothing wrong with bacon-wrapped fried chicken dipped in chocolate sauce - as an experience, if stumbled upon during a visit to the county fair (for example). Certainly it's not something that ought to be consumed regularly - but it isn't intrinsically evil. I strongly believe that the North American obsession with identifying so-called "bad foods" is a huge part of the societal problem, and a major contributor to the obesity epidemic. I'd (continue to) promote a healthy, balanced diet that avoids whatever the recent trend or fads might be, and promote regular physical activity. Not all kids might enjoy running, swimming, or whatever organized sport in which a parent might enroll them - but some sort of physical activity should be encouraged. Family walks/hikes, playing in the park (for younger kids), skiing and/or tobogganing, bike rides, and other activities that make getting outside and playing fun for everyone. Sure, some kids just want to run around and others want to sit and read - but kids should be encouraged to do both, and it's the parents' job to set the expectations of "normal" and lead by example.

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<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
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And that is all it takes. Unfortunately we now have to give kids video games just to get them to exercise. (Note: I use we as the collective America, I personally would open the door and tell them to go outside and do something) Why does it seem that an aversion of getting kids to exercise exists? (Honest question, hoping for an honest answer)

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When someone pulls laws out of their @$$, all we end up with are laws that smell like sh!t. -Skippy