I thought most birth control pills were on the banned substance list, or thats what i heard anyways

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Ride Scoozy Electric Bicycles
http://www.RideScoozy.com

I'd be surprised if a lot of them were on birth control. A lot of female high level endurance athletes have amenorrhea, because their body fat levels don't support menstruation.

And why would it be different? Men or women, high levels of endurance training knock down the sex drive quite a bit.

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

In my experience, this happens with or without birth control pills and with or without triathlon training in the mix. Most women have to work on their sex drive, unlike most men. When you have kids, a job, a house, bills, etc, the stress and lack of sleep can do horrible things to a woman's libido.

I'd be interested to hear if you feel the same about pro/elite men. Is the training that they're doing having a similar effect on their libido? Is your theory that the difference is the birth control pills that many women are on?

So, are you trying to say that an autoimmune disease (i.e. rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, etc.) can be brought on by "excessive" endurance training? Maybe you are you confused on the term?

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____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

I read somewhere that testosterone levels control women's sex drive... If any of the pros are, eh, supplementing, I would expect them to have quite vigorous sex drives.

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Erik
Strava

Although I don't have an answer to this highly scientific question, I do utilize sex drive as my major indicator of overtraining. If it's low I go slow. If it's high it's time to fly. At least that's how I role.

I'm pretty sure they all want to get lei'd. Ah, I couldn't help it...

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"I can eat 21 plus a deep-fried turkey!"

Not to support anyone's argument (with which I'm not familiar), I did treat a patient with dupuytren's contracture (thought to have some autoimmune risk factor/relationship) that resolved once he stopped applying androgel with that hand. Actually, he discontinued androgel entirely, but had been applying it to his chest with the affected hand.

I have a surf-buddy who is a pharmacist----he scratched his head over that one...wasn't familiar with any similar reports (generally skin reactions, but not fascia). Who knows what the relationship was, but onset and resolution timed exactly with the steroid creme. Weird.

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http://www.coastalhealthandfitness.com

I wanted to use that topic for my thesis last year but my advisor said NO.

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

... I'm also curious,


If the last sentence is true: is it better to be training that much and NOT on birth control?


Is it NOT an autoimmune disease? (I am just trying to understand) ... how SHOULD it be treated?

That may be out of your scope as a chiropractor - I don't know. But maybe someone else could answer.

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

Most amenhorrea is treated with BCP.

Ammenhorrea is NOT only caused by a lack of body fat. There are a lot of factors - that is one of them - recent research points to a caloric deficit (energy imbalance) as the primary cause. I've posted something in the womens forum about a big study just done regarding this - ACSM Position Stand on the Female Athlete Triad. Was publsihed last spring I believe.

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

Why would one use birth control if one has no sex drive?

ha, that's a good question.

I'm pretty sure you're just joking, but the serious answer is that BC provides bone-protective estrogen for women not manufacturing enough of it on their own (amenhorrea).

I'm seriously interested in this topic and hope we can get some smart people to chime in.

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

just bc you have no sex drive doesn't mean you aren't going to have sex.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Come on Spicoli, out with it. You're looking for 'volunteers' to test your thesis.

Interesting topic to discuss though.

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***
Up Up Down Down Left Right Left Right B A B A

Still works half limp

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Ruble Triathlon Coaching Average of 30 coached PR's per year
Florida Triathlon Camps Train in North Americas winter training destination
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As someone else mentioned, sex drive in both men and women is driven by testosterone levels (in addition to lots of other things, just keeping it simple) and as far as I know, endurance training can absolutely lower testosterone over time. So from that POV, I would think both men and women, doing serious endurance training would suffer in the libido department.

NOTE: I am not a medical professional...just regurgitating stuff I have read and been shared with by physicians.

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"Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof." - John Kenneth Galbraith

I agree with you, endurance training to the "extreme" is not healthy and even more so for women than it is for men. It would be interesting to see some hormonal data of a group of female athletes throughout the season.

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�The greater danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it.� -Michelangelo

MoodBoost Drink : Mood Support + Energy.

do you have any evidence of any kind on "wear" on the thyroid or the pathophysiology of autoimmune diseases? otherwise, i would agree with the other posters that libido is mostly controlled by testosterone in both males and females, and also is not connected to total body fat (although adipose cells are involved with the regulation of sex hormones, specifically estrogen), and may be more related to caloric intake.

Oh boy. Dupytren's contracture is NOT an autoimmune disease either. There *may* be a familial tendency, but that it not what an autoimmune disease is.

Interesting in that it can be treated with steroid injections into the fibromatous nodules as well. Who knows why his "resolved" after the androgel use. Personally I like collagenase enzyme injection to break down the collagen cross linking. I haven't found the new topical calcium channel blockers with electrophoresis (or whatever ion transport drives it) very effective.

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____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

If I recall Susan Williams's daughter is named Sydney because a pregnancy put off her Olympic dream...

"Here is what happens to women. Many are on birth control and combined with an incredible amount of adrenal stress, they start to work their thryoid tissue overtime. After a couple of years of doing this, their bodies begin to fall apart. They dont sleep as well, they are chronically fatigued (which they blame on "training",)libido sucks and so on."
--------------------------------------------

It's not just women. Men experience the same issues - minus the birth control part. A few years ago when I was in this same situation,my hormone levels (cortisol, testosterone, T3, T4, etc.) as well as my neurotransmitter levels were all way out of whack. It is not just a result of the stress of high level training. The rest of life tends to pile on too.

Haim

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"Sometimes you need to think INSIDE the box!" -- ME
"Why squirrel hate me?"

"If any of the pros are, eh, supplementing, I would expect them to have quite vigorous sex drives. "
---------------------------------

Based on the number of pro women that have ever shown any "interest" in me, I would have to conclude that pro women are definitely NOT "supplementing" ;)

Haim

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"Sometimes you need to think INSIDE the box!" -- ME
"Why squirrel hate me?"

I don't want to be disrespectful, I just don't understand your point. Is it your conjecture that working hard causes hypothyroidism? I don't know enough to comment at a scientific level but does that make sense? Sometimes tired is just tired.

Please help me understand your thoughts. I'm not dismissing them (I can't), I just don't understand them.

Hi Jeff,

As a person who has been called a molecular immunologist (or at least played one on TV), I would not say that there would be a resulting autoimmune disease. This would not make much sense; as it has been shown in many studies the depression of the immune system with high work loads. If you are proposing that the hormones from the birthcontrol are causing a differential effect on regulatory t-cells as a result of the increased workload, then that would be something interesting to study, but VERY difficult to tease apart. You would have to go into oxidative stress, interplay with hormone levels, endogenous vs. introduced hormones (and any differences which could result)....well, Im sure that I could go on for quite a while, and I would bet that someone smart could even say something intelligent; but in the end, it would be chasing your tail due to the complexity of the immune system...Just talk to an immunologist or two, and you will know what I mean. They will tell you a lot of 'stuff' but at the end of any discussion, it will come down to the fact that there are just too many multifactorial unknowns to the system to really tell what changing one thing will do. OK, now that I have just said a whole bunch of nothing; I would go back to the first thing...I really dont think that there is any autoimmune component to this.

Stephen J

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I believe my local reality has been violated.
____________________________________________
Happiness = Results / (Expectations)^2

How can you possible conclude that women who podium (and are on hormonal contraception) do not sleep well nor have adequate sex drives due to adrenal stress and 'autoimmune' induced thyroid dysfunction?

Even IF these women ALL have thyroid antibodies and decreased thyroid levels, perhaps it is that combination of factors that allowed them to become elite - ie they self selected. Additionally adrenal stress will mimic thryoid disease, so unless thyroid antiboides are supporting your 'thesis' it smacks of junk science.

this thread totally didn't go where i was hoping it would.

Another direction, but still not what you were hoping for....

Has anyone investigated the interaction of eating wedding cake and wearing gold/diamonds on one's ring finger? What effect does this have on testosterone? I'm guessing high levels of training have nothing to do with it.

Without a shadow of a doubt as a group they are as horny as any other group of women you can name.
Cheers,
Scott

Voice of wisdom and experience! And they have more endurance ;-) ...

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Francois-Xavier Li @FrancoisLi
"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing." George Bernard Shaw
http://www.swimrunfrance.fr
http://www.worldofswimrun.com

With all due respect, you've gotten things a bit confused.

Yes libido is mostly testosterone controlled.

Sex drive is not directly related to total body fat (an interesting world THAT would be if it were true! hee hee) but rather fat is a precursor to hormones, estrogen in particular as you mentioned, and that is an indirect link to sex drive.

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

Even if you take the autoimmune disease part out, it's still a good question. This topic pops up on occasion around here - we've had several threads about it. The link between training, physiological factors associated with that training + hormones + diet + meds + ??? is quite complex to tease out, and it's fascinating.

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

.... given the sleepless night after the awards/k-swiss party I would say no!!!! ;)

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bikefitasia.com

But is this merely anecdotal, or is it the result of a scientific study, and thereby repeatable? If this is from your own research, please describe it, giving particular attention to materials and methods.

Or if it's just anecdotal, we'll settle for some anecdotes.

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Over 4.5 years bike crash free.

Without a shadow of a doubt as a group they are as horny as any other group of women you can name.

ST comes through again! Who needs a bunch of scientists doing studies when we have real people in the field doing the hard work and reporting back. ;)

Chrissie! Chrissie! Are you out there? Please, please respond!!!

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Damn, that's a cold ass honkey.

"Chrissie! Chrissie! Are you out there? Please, please respond!!! "
---------------------------------------

I wonder if Virginia Berasategui reads ST?

Damn...I wish I had paid more attention in my college Spanish classes ;)

Haim

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"Sometimes you need to think INSIDE the box!" -- ME
"Why squirrel hate me?"

But I think that you are missing the point that I was so convolutedly making. The point is that it is not a good question, as it is not pointed enough. If it were focused to tease the small bits and pieces out it would be a start; but there is just not enough basic knowledge of the system as a whole that doing the kind of study that you are suggesting would be kind of worthless, as it would be a small 'n' and not provide any significant advance on the understanding of the system and how it really works. If I were a reviewer for a grant which proposed what you are suggesting, it would definitely not make the cut. Im not trying to be a killjoy, just looking at the question in a scientific light which attempts to make advances in understanding, rather than just generating data which may or may not agree with a notion, but really does not add to a deep comprehension of how things work.

Stephen J

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I believe my local reality has been violated.
____________________________________________
Happiness = Results / (Expectations)^2

.....she speaks english ;)

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I wonder if Virginia Berasategui reads ST?

Damn...I wish I had paid more attention in my college Spanish classes ;)

Haim

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bikefitasia.com

Endurance athletes have a higher sex drive. Sorry if this was said I'm in class on my iPod and didn't want to read every post

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USAT Level II- Ironman U Certified Coach

ST comes through again! Who needs a bunch of scientists doing studies when we have real people in the field doing the hard work and reporting back

In this case, I'm willing to donate my body to science....for the betterment of all mankind...and womenskind, too.

In this case, I'm willing to donate my body to science....for the betterment of all mankind...and womenskind, too.

We'll be the judge as to whether your body is for the betterment of womenskind. Please post a pic and the Womens of ST will decide.

scott is definitly right, elite womens athletes in my experience have very healthy sex drive!!!!

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

If this is a serious question...
One reason is so women can know (and manipulate) EXACTLY when they will have their period. Comes in handy when planning a race season, for sure.

X2 to that.......

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-Brad Williams
Website | Twitter: @BW_Tri |Instagram: @BW_Tri | Strava | Co-Founder & Coach at: KIS Coaching
Partnered with: Zoot Sports | Precision Fuel &Hydration | ISM

Many moons ago I was at a race in Atlanta...big race at that. One of the ProW folks who was married to a ProM stud (no names but both are/were quite famous)...but anyways, the ProW was found in a back hall of a convention center on top of a U23 kid - rodeo style. Watching from a distance we see and hear her grab said U23's shirt at the neck and tell him in a not so nice way "You are not going to come until I tell you that you can come"....a look of terror washed over the face of the U23 a this ProW stud(ette) who was with out doubt trottleing him with some massive power in her elite legs....

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----------------------------------------------------------

What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

"Many moons ago I was at a race in Atlanta..."
----------------------------------------------

Why do these things always seem to happen to you? You need to write a book ;)

Haim

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"Sometimes you need to think INSIDE the box!" -- ME
"Why squirrel hate me?"

haha classic.


just another point. Healthy people have healthy awesome sex.

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USAT Level II- Ironman U Certified Coach

(note - the U23 was NOT her husband....Shhhhhhhhhhh ;-)

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

I'll delete this if I'm wrong but my understanding is female endurance athletes produce testosterone in mass quantities while men give it away in mass quantities. Am I even close?

Oh, and a non-elite female endurance athlete I once knew said she was absolutely ravenous when it came to sex, largely because of her training volume. Couldn't tell you first hand, but to paraphrase, that's what she said. Thus, I'd have to believe the top women let off that steam quite frequently.

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"The hero is someone in continual opposition to the status quo. The hero is always becoming himself." Jos� Ortega y Gasset.

"The enthusiasm (absorbing or controlling possession of the mind by any interest or pursuit) is needed before breaking the milestone and not after." Sergio Escutia, on Lukas Verzbicas' subdued reaction to breaking 4 minutes in the mile.

I am by NO means elite, but I do know that the more I train the hornier I get. Never have had any complaints about that....

Damn, I love this sport...

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-------------------------------------------
"The hero is someone in continual opposition to the status quo. The hero is always becoming himself." Jos� Ortega y Gasset.

"The enthusiasm (absorbing or controlling possession of the mind by any interest or pursuit) is needed before breaking the milestone and not after." Sergio Escutia, on Lukas Verzbicas' subdued reaction to breaking 4 minutes in the mile.

me too ;)

the more I train the hornier I get

get back with us when you're over 50 and training for an IM. ;)

too tired to wank = overtrained.

Now I'm curious. I wish I had an ex phys text handy.

I don't think that statement is entirely true (but DON'T delete it, I'm hoping some of the smart people will chime in). If females produced boatloads of testosterone, we'd have huge muscles like you guys. The #1 argument that women like to tell other women for "you won't get huge bulky muscles from lifting" is "women don't have enough testosterone." And that argument is true.

However, whether female athletes produce MORE testosterone than their nonactive counterparts, I don't know.

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

as a general rule, weight lifting increases testosterone levels, not endurance training.

but don't tell Lehrner, he might have to go back to the weight room

right. Lifting increases testosterone while you're doing the lifting...

does it increase testosterone OVERALL? or just in the blood @ that time?

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

if you measure directly after - and has to have a longer effect as it also increases growth hormone.

Well, considering that you are a chiropractor and not a Doctor, how would you have any idea what the right way to treat an elite athlete with a decreased sex drive even is? An elite athlete with immune problems is not likely to present with an autoimmune disease, rather if they have immune problems they are going to present with impaired immunity. The loss of menstruation has typically been attributed to the female athlete "triad", whereby disordered eating, increased exercise and excessive weight loss cause a decrease in estrogen levels and consequently a loss of cyclic control. However, some new research is beginning to move away from this theory and argue that many elite female athletes actually lie closer to their male counterparts in that they have higher natural testosterone levels. This gives them many of the physical benefits that males enjoy over females, thus increasing their level of competitiveness.
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/104452.php
I wonder what Chrissie Wellington's Testosterone levels are like?

uhm I am not the chiropractor who started the thread.

I AM a medical doctor. And I have been asserting that sex drive does NOT decrease. so not sure why you aimed your response at me.
Whilst none of the athletes in my practice are elite, not one has complained of decreased sex drive.

There IS a correlation between a decrease in sex drive and a high training load. We've had other threads on this. Just because you haven't seen it in your patients doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

Is this opinion based upon any data or just anecdotal forum threads? Do those threads differentiate between athletes who are eating disordered and have a high training load or all athletes with a high training load. Body dysmorphic disorder DOES affect sex drive and I would argue that that might be more at play than high training load.

If you look in the Lore of Running, by Tim Noakes - a recognized exercise physiologist - you will note "decreased sex drive" under the list of overtraining/overreaching symptoms. It is mentioned in literature.

I agree that body image issues/disorders could be a factor in decreased sex drive, but in the threads we've had here it is usually men (far less likely to have eating disorders) commenting on the lack of sex drive.

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

but THIS thread was about women.
Men and women are different physiologically and in how training stress affects them. The similarity is that the pituitary axis is affected, and overall reproduction suffers - which in MEN means less testosterone and in WOMEN means less estrogen:

From: Kronenberg: Williams Textbook of Endocrinology, 11th ed.; CHAPTER 25 - HORMONES AND ATHLETIC PERFORMANCE > ... > Hypothalamus-Pituitary-Gonadal Axis


Female Gonadal Axis
Circulating levels of testosterone, dehydroepiandrosterone, dehydroepiandrosterone sulphate, estradiol, growth hormone (GH), and cortisol have been shown to increase in response to an acute bout of endurance exercise in women. However, only GH, estradiol, and cortisol have been reported to increase following resistance exercise.[84]
Hyperandrogenism has been suggested as a possible alternative mechanism underlying oligomenorrhea or amenorrhea in some female athletes with menstrual disturbances.[85] Interestingly, hyperandrogenic female athletes have a more anabolic body composition and higher VO2max and performance values in comparison with female athletes with menstrual disturbances but normal androgen concentrations.[85]
Summary
The endocrine equilibrium that regulates reproductive function in women can be affected by physical and psychological factors. Many female athletes develop oligomenorrhea, amenorrhea, and luteal phase defects. Negative energy balance is the primary cause of the impairment of normal reproductive function commonly observed in female athletes. The link between negative energy balance and reproductive dysfunction is represented by leptin, which serves as a signal to the CNS with information on the critical amount of adipose tissue stores that is necessary for GnRH secretion and pubertal activation of the hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis. Possible alternative mechanisms underlying oligomenorrhea or amenorrhea in some female athletes include the stress-induced activation of the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis, endogenous opioid peptides, catecholestrogens, and hyperandrogenism.


In MEN testosterone decreases (and sometimes libido):

Male Gonadal Axis
Endurance training induces changes in the function of the reproductive axis in men in a similar manner to the changes in women. There is a subclinical inhibition of normal reproductive function but it is unclear whether clinical expression of reproductive suppression is common in men. Although measures of sperm function are generally normal in runners with very strenuous training regimens even with very low physiologic androgen levels,[56] there is evidence that males with a high level of physical activity have some abnormalities of semen analysis. [57] [58] Libido may also be reduced in some [male]athletes during intense endurance training periods; reduced testosterone levels but also chronic fatigue may play a role. [49] [56]
Summary
Short, intense exercise usually increases while prolonged exercise usually decreases serum testosterone levels. The exercise-associated increment in circulating testosterone does not seem to be mediated by LH. Possible mechanisms such as hemoconcentration, reduced clearance, and/or increased testosterone synthesis may be involved. A variety of systems could influence the testosterone decrease during and subsequent to more prolonged exercise, including decreased gonadotropins, increased cortisol or catecholamine levels, or even an accumulation of metabolic waste materials. The fall in serum testosterone results from decreased production rates, decreased binding, or increased clearance.
Endurance and other forms of training can induce subclinical inhibition of normal reproductive function. Libido may also be reduced in some [male]athletes during intense endurance training periods, due to reduced testosterone levels and to chronic fatigue.

Okay. Thanks for the copied literature.

I'm not trying to argue with you; I'm merely stating that this phenomenon exists, in men and women.

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

show me literature related to women with decreased libido NOT related to eating disorders - I suspect you will have difficulty finding it. The phenomenon is well known in MEN.

I'm interested and will happily do research once I finish the schoolwork I've got to do for the day. But I'm inherently at a disadvantage, beacuse:

1. studies are commonly done with men, and usually college-aged men. There are several reasons for this, starting with historical that guys got to have all the fun (so to speak) and researchers assumed generality that they'd just take whatever they found in men and apply it in women (such, we know now, is not an appropriate generalization of research). Another reason to use college age men is a group of college age athletic men are quite easy to get one's paws on as research subjects.

2. Whether studies separated control and experimental groups by women with and without eating disorders is going to be hard to find. I might be able to find a study that looked at sex drive in female athletes, but who knows if they considered ED/non ED as a confounding variable.

3. It's easier to study lack of sex drive in men anyway... men ALWAYS want to have sex!

will get back to you later.

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

There is a fundamental problem with making statements which seem to be either directly stated or implied here; as I stated in an earlier reply. The problem is that making the statements based on human studies in an academic setting (the only place I have seen any study like this) lack the control and ‘pointedness’ to address the root cause; which will very likely end up being multifactorial. In order to gain a real understanding, you have to have a LARGE study group so that you can work the statistical magic that ferrets out the signal among the noise, or you have to have control over the system so that you can break down the question into component parts (such as an animal model (which has fewer issues than dealing with humans), cell culture, or some another study system).

I honestly am not knocking the question. What I am saying is that you have to take the literature with a very large grain of salt. For all the physicians, let me explain myself this way: If a patient comes in and has a list of symptoms, are you able to provide a diagnosis that you are sure is accurate? I would guess that for the majority of the time, you have to run additional tests to chase down educated guesses based on past experience and book learning. If everyone was the same in terms of physiology, then you would be more able to just make a diagnosis on symptoms based on the large body of information gathered from the past several hundred years of medicine. My base point is that each patient eats something different, lives in a different house, does different things, and may come from different genetic backgrounds which all can affect physiology during sickness or health. Therefore; the studies which look at complex problems like ‘sex drive’ are kind of bogus, and really just another piece of anecdotal evidence. Im not saying that doing this work is not difficult or does not take a lot of work, just that it does not tell as much as the authors might want it to mean.

Stephen J

---

I believe my local reality has been violated.
____________________________________________
Happiness = Results / (Expectations)^2

I have never made sweet, sweet lovin' to an elite female endurance athlete. From that I would have to conclude that they (as well as every other woman) have no sex drive. Keep in mind this is not a simple N=1 example, I have been rejected by countless women. It is a very large sample size.

They would if I had anything to do with it.

---

-All You Haters Suck My Balls-

not so anonymous...

I have 3 kids, 'nough said.

---

http://www.pbmcoaching.com
USA Triathlon Level 3 Elite Coach
USA Cycling Level 1 Elite Coach

show me literature related to women with decreased libido NOT related to eating disorders -I suspect you will have difficulty finding it

Maybe I'm missing something here. You seem to be suggesting that all decreases in women's libidos are due to eating disorders. Correct?

It seems like it will be eating disorders + high training load but not JUST high training load...

Anyways this thread took the wrong turn and got too technical, its time for R10C to come back with some other "anecdotal" study, experience or story that will trump all science and entertain at the same time.

I have seen lately a thread about vomiting, another about a "celeb" puking 17+ times at Kona, this one about bulimics and people with eating disorders, body image problems, just plain depressing... I mean please enough puke for a week :)

Peace

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______________________________________
"Bros b4 Hos, man" House MD

Team Aquaphor 06-08

Anyways this thread took the wrong turn and got too technical, its time for R10C to come back with some other bullshit story, experience or story that will trump all science and entertain at the same time.

There, I fixed it for you.

x2!!!!!!

---

36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App

To suggest that endurance training in and of itself leads to decreased libido in WOMEN is just plain wrong - and the literature supports this claim.

No, I am not suggesting that in ALL women decrease is libido is related to eating disorders - depression, hormone disruption, fatigue are more common, but in elite women endurance athletes? It is NOT the norm, it is NOT caused by high training loads. Given the preponderance of eating disorders amongst female athletes that is a more likely cause.

Tigerchik is just plain wrong on this one. She will be hard pressed to find any literature to support her claim that in WOMEN high training load is correlated to decreased libido. In WOMEN high training load leads to INCREASED testosterone and decreased estrogen - amenorrhea and INCREASED sex drive.

Since she did not have ready references, I can only assume she is speaking from personal experience. I would like to suggest that trying to expand on one's own anecdotal experience is usually wrong.

you should know by now that some comments don't even require pink fond, it's assumed

peace

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______________________________________
"Bros b4 Hos, man" House MD

Team Aquaphor 06-08

And we have a winner...

However, some new research is beginning to move away from this theory

In other words, the medical profession really has no clue but you diminish someone else's opinion because they are not a doctor?

Oh no you don't, I need technical and sciency.

---

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

So it's okay for you to say: no literature exists, thus it can't happen?

As for "tigerchik didn't have any ready references," I've been busy all day with schoolwork, training, and a doctor's appointment and haven't had a chance to look.

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

Please tell me two hot chicks rode in on a carbon QR Seduza and took over when her insatiable appetite could not be fulfilled by the young stud...with Zipp 808s.

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Damn, that's a cold ass honkey.

Jeff - PubMed doesn't have the full text (or an abstract) for this article but the title is promising:

'Overtraining' in athletes and decreased libido.
Altbuch AM.
Am Fam Physician. 1993 Oct;48(5):734. No abstract available.
PMID: 8213404 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


I'll see if we've got the paper journal in the library tomorrow.

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

... furthermore, it's short-sighted to say "testosterone increases, therefore, female athletes must have a higher sex drive" because there are a lot of factors - physical (hormonal) and psychological that influence sex drive. And ALL of them need to be considered.


You keep asking me to prove what I'm saying, yet you have no evidence for claims like "it's not the norm" or "it's NOT caused by high training loads." Until you prove or disprove something you have to admit, it COULD happen. We know it happens in males so why can't it happen in females?

But I am done wasting my time arguing with you, I think it's a subject that needs more research, and I think that research will show that men and women can suffer low libido when they are training heavily. All? no. Some? Yup.

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

Hendon: I sense from your posts that you are a physician as am I (pulmonary/critical care). It cracks me up the number of college students who read something in Biology 101 or people not in the field on this forum who consider themselves experts when commenting on medical topics. That's why usually don't post on these topics. Kudos to you to chime in.

My bachelor's degree is in exercise science. I'm a grad student now (different program though).

Physicians often think they know everything there possibly is to know. That's kind of annoying too.

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

Wow, I am impressed!

?

Peace

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"Bros b4 Hos, man" House MD

Team Aquaphor 06-08

Why can't someone have an opinion about something just because they're not a doctor? Last I check this was a TRIATHLON FORUM, not an AMA medical conference. The idea behind this forum thingy is for people to discuss thoughts and opinions based on their own life experiences. No need to be a doctor to have an opinion, the last I checked. I think you and your ego need to find another place to vent.

well looks like tigerchick is at it again, and this time doing it while making friends with all the docs in the house.

for the love of god, can we please get this thread back to sex stories about Pro/Elite Women?

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Damn, that's a cold ass honkey.

Wow, one more person with a chip on their shoulder. My point is that sometimes people post on this forum medical advice when they have no background or experience in the field. A recent thread on asthma where the individual was asking for advice from the forum rather than following the instructions of their physician which has the potential to be dangerous. I don't ask for investment advice from a forum. Having been in academic medicine for a number of years, just because a study says something does not mean it is true as there are usually other studies saying the opposite.A classic example 10 years ago was when the thought that the inhaler albuterol use correlated with and increased death rate. The truth was that the more severe your asthma the more likely you are to use that inhaler and those are the people that have a higher mortality. In the end alot of people quit using albuterol that needed it and died because of misinformation from the media.

damn straight. now someone post some pics! stat.

Nah. You're confusing Docs with Engineers. ;)

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"100% of the people who confuse correlation and causation end up dying."

Doesn't it relate to area of exptertise? An MD's opinion on clincher vs. tubular is no better than mine. But, I would defer to an ortho doctor on treatment options for my broken clavicle.

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Damn, that's a cold ass honkey.

x2
There are also many people who do not fully understand the significance of the statistics in a research paper, glossing over them and skipping straight to the author's interpretation of data and accepting it as "fact" rather than forming their own opinion. Of course you need enough expertise and experience in the subject matter to do that and on forum's like these, I look forward to when a true expert chimes in. Please do so, there are many of us here that appreciate it!

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__________________________________________________
Twitter: @jayasports
Web: http://www.jayasports.com

Maybe someone will post one of those pic's of Ficker's butt???

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________________________________________________________________________
It's not how many years you have left in life, it's how much life you have left in your years!

I wouldnt be so fast to throw stones...Tigerchik may be wrong here; but she does not have the monopoly on wrong. I have been burned more than once while doing research by physicians who did not understand how research is done, and what a proper experimental design is; much less how to interpret data in a meaningful way...Please dont take this as any accusation against you; just a general statement that even experienced well educated folks can say bone headed things because they think they know something that they really dont.

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I believe my local reality has been violated.
____________________________________________
Happiness = Results / (Expectations)^2

Thanks. There was an old saying when i was in academics and it was "there are lies, damned lies, and statistics." In the past I have published studies where i believed the data was equivocal yet by using the right statistical method it was a "positive" study. Quite frankly that is part of the reason i left academics not to mention i liked taking care of patients more than writing papers.

i remember on the first day of stats in college the prof told us that any statistician worth his salt could make anything look any way he wanted. and now in my professional life i've learned that the guy that is funding the research usually get the favorable result.

Doesn't it relate to area of exptertise?

Absolutely. And I agree that in medical discussions, I take a doctor's opinion into account more than someone else. However, that doesn't mean that anyone who's not a doctor can't contribute something meaningful to the thread. A few of them were scoffing at non-doctors giving opinions and that's what I think is ignorant.

Nope, no chip on my shoulder. I just think you're wrong.

Here, I'll give you a smilie so there's no hard feelings.

Like they say, even a broken clock is correct twice a day.

ready references means you already have them, not that you need to go search for them.
When I quoted a textbook earlier in the thread it was one of several sources at my fingertips

Perhaps instead of letting your personal experience colour your view you should maybe open your very closed mind to the possibility that someone with decades of patient care once FINISHED with graduate medical education MIGHT know more than you do.

there is no abstract because it is a LETTER - NOT an article.

this just shows your basic inability to understand the textbook pieces I put in earlier in the thread. The pituitary axis is not that big a mystery. Men get lower testosterone women get lower estrogen. Men have been shown to have lower libido. Women have not. Vastly simplified to see if maybe you can now follow, since you are a graduate student.

I see why you don't chime in.

Not sure I will waste my time in the future.

I don't know if you;re right or worng on this topic, but I do know one thing: You're kind of an a**hole. The personal nature of your attacks against TChik are really unnecessary. And you probably wonder why people think doctors are pricks.

Dude....you just gotta throw in the towel on this on. TigerChik is an idiot. We all know that on ST. She had some big stressful senior thesis (senior in undergrad mind you) last year and all of a sudden she is the resident know-it-all on ST. I agree with just about everything you've said including your remarks about TigerChik. She is most likely very well hated in her current program and most people were probably very happy to see her graduate.

That was really uncalled for. Why would you decide to pile on to this and be a total asshole? I honestly don't get it.

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Jen

"In order to keep a true perspective on one's importance, everyone should have a dog that worships him and a cat that will ignore him." - Dereke Bruce

This whole thread, like many of her posts, has turned into a scream for help. Seriously. Open your eyes.

*edit* And I don't just mean her posts on here. Have you ever seen her posts on SFWED? scary

I agree that it was uncalled for in that manner. I like to think of this board as instructive, and helpful...a place to bounce about ideas. The problem with this subject is that there are some experts who have a large amount of experience, which took a lot of time, annoyance, aggravation, etc. to arrive at. Speaking for myself, I am only 10 years out of my Ph.D.; but and just like when you look back at your childhood and think 'what the heck was I thinking' the same goes for early stages of a career where you might think at the time that you know more than you actually know. Again, just speaking for myself, there is a lot of bitterness, anger, disillusionment after finishing my graduate work; due in a large part to people who spoke out their a$$ about stuff that they thought they knew, but really did not. A fellow graduate student who bailed with a masters once said to me “if you finish your Ph.D. and are not angry bitter and disillusioned, you just didn’t do it right”; and I would have to agree with that. So…once again, my convoluted point is this:

-A STer is acting as an expert, but really does not have the expertise to speak authoritively on the subject.

-More authoritive STers are calling that person out in a very sharp manner.

-Neither side is contributing to a better understanding of the question…which IMVHO is not a question which has any really valid answers at this point in time; just conjecture based on some small groups of data.

There is nothing wrong with trying to contribute if you are not an expert (heck, I do it all the time), but don’t try to pretend that you are an expert that you are not.

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I believe my local reality has been violated.
____________________________________________
Happiness = Results / (Expectations)^2

I think you are confusing "Personal attack" with "being called out."

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coming soon...

No, making the huge and unsubstantiated leap that Tigerchik was projecting from her own personal experience (i.e. that her own sex drive decreased) made this a personal attack. I have no problem with his challenging her research and providing his own counter-research, and no problem with him waving his experience around like a dick. But jumping to that conclusion was personal and unwarranted because it didn't come form anything she said; he just projected that onto her.

That's a dick move, and says more about him than her.

I am a she not a he.

Just a wee bit of search on these forums led to being able to 'project' that Tigerchik was projecting. I will not disclose what I found on the other website but suffice to say my conclusion was 100% accurate

Okay, then your a bitch, not a dick.

Still a tacky, personal attack. You may be right, I have no idea, but its still a bitchy, catty personal attack.

her first two posts to this site:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=107775;search_string=tigerchik;#107775
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ing=tigerchik;#92765 not a big leap to conclude that she is speaking from personal experience.

I called her out because she directed her posts at my responses. I responded with explaining the pituitary axis, including text book reference, not to mention the many years of treating actual athletes. How else would I call her out? Not once did she actually respond with ANY data (save that discussions have happened on this forum).

Once again, decreased libido is well documented in MALE endurance athletes but not FEMALE endurance athletes. Women are much more likely to seek medical care and are the majority of healthcare consumers. Were this an issue in non eating disordered endurance athletes there would be a plethora written.

http://www.flickr.com/...entsport/2106749427/

I don't know how to post pictures but you are just a click away.

decreased libido is well documented in MALE endurance athletes but not FEMALE endurance athletes.

That may be part of the problem- it's well documented in men. There seems to be a dearth of research on female endurance athletes in general, much less on their libidos related to training.

BCP is used to treat amenorrhea in females that have other disorders. The most common treatment for exercise induced is to reduce the exercise intensity and increase caloric intake.

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

Your entire contribution to this thread consists of a personal attack on TC, not even talking about whether she has a valid point, not contributing to further the discussion of the topic in any way.

Why are you here?

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Jen

"In order to keep a true perspective on one's importance, everyone should have a dog that worships him and a cat that will ignore him." - Dereke Bruce

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http://www.flickr.com/...entsport/2106749427/

I don't know how to post pictures but you are just a click away.

Speaking of my libido.....

That may be part of the problem- it's well documented in men. There seems to be a dearth of research on female endurance athletes in general, much less on their libidos related to training.

My thoughts exactly while reading this thread. I've done some searches in pubmed on the effects of long term use of BC pills and athletic performance and came up pretty empty. What has been done is on younger women, not long term use. At least that I could find.

No, that isn't related to the topic, but it is an illustration of where research into female endurance athletes seems to be lacking. Lots of studies on male athletes, not as many on female.

I have no medical training so I'm in no position to defend one side or another, only anecdotal evidence so I'll stay out of the science discussion.



(edited for piss poor spelling)

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Jen

"In order to keep a true perspective on one's importance, everyone should have a dog that worships him and a cat that will ignore him." - Dereke Bruce

I wonder how she feels about the following her ass has???

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________________________________________________________________________
It's not how many years you have left in life, it's how much life you have left in your years!

Looks like they know TC from another site, and don't like her there. He/she joined 6 days ago, has 15 posts, 4 of which are attacks on TC, and 4 others that are snide little asides to other people. Obviously destined to be a lasting, well respected contributor.

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

That (sadly) isn't too surprising. When you remember that the majority of funding for science is allocated by old, fat white guys, it becomes more clear why we have a thousand different ways to treat a heart attack, baldness, and erectile dysfunction but have seen embarrassingly little improvements on medical techniques such as hysterectomies.

Can we get back to stories of Pro women attacking U23 boys?

Better?

Or, preferably, where the highest potential for Pro women to attack 27 y.o men is?

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My training

There have been numerous studies over the last 40 years looking at hormonal contraception's effects on libido - and interestingly it always ends up about 50-50 - the reasons given are often that on the side where women report higher libido - they no longer worry about pregnancy ergo they feel free to indulge. On the side where women feel less libido oft the reason given is that they are disconnected from their natural cycles and procreative ability.

it's obvious to me that the average sex drive of the average ST poster is well below average. speaking averagely of course. if
the average sex drive was above average this thread would have turned into the new hottie thread and we all would have had a much better time. oh well, maybe next time.............

Looks like I need to switch from Triathlete to Inside Triathlon...but seriously, shouldn't we be posting silly stuff like this rather then attacking each other about stuff most of us don't care about? Yes, the original question had merit and was interesting, but to throw out facts and literally fight over them...well I'd rather go with the teenager mentality while going through puberty. I guess that makes me an immature, childish, ST'r with a healthy sex drive! Does that mean I don't train enough???

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________________________________________________________________________
It's not how many years you have left in life, it's how much life you have left in your years!

why yes, pro/elite women DO have a sex drive.

I skipped the boring parts.

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...........................................................................
:: I came, I saw, I conquered. then I ran out of money, crashed into a car during an Ironman, and now work a bad-ass job making prosthetic legs for wounded warriors. ::

the blog: My So-Called Civilian Life :: theWongstar.com :: follow me @theWongstar

good to know because if there are any women pro's/elitists at having sex, i'm your man!!

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It's not about the bike, it's just along for the ride.

any chance that you're replying to me in order to indicate you're searching for a 27 year old dude to attack?

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My training

hmmm. well my female teammates told me not to go after pro men because they are broke and too into themselves.

my coach said to go for the age group men because they have a lot of money.

do you have a lot of money?

actually, he recommended the 40+ AG'ers. HAHAHA

sponsor...sugar daddy...same difference... ;)

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...........................................................................
:: I came, I saw, I conquered. then I ran out of money, crashed into a car during an Ironman, and now work a bad-ass job making prosthetic legs for wounded warriors. ::

the blog: My So-Called Civilian Life :: theWongstar.com :: follow me @theWongstar

You kill me.

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I know I'm promiscuous, but in a classy way

well, from what i can tell, there's a reason why your teamates are insignificant. hey, don't blame me, all the monies in the world wouldn't change that.

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It's not about the bike, it's just along for the ride.

So where the hell are all these horny jock chicks? That pic of Desiree Ficker makes me crazy.

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I'm not a complete idiot, some of the parts are missing.

Really, as your travel sponsor where does this leave me, apart from with a tattered reputation ;-)

Ahh well, when you get to my age ....

LOL, this PROVES that triathlon training does not negatively effect sex drive! Scientific study no longer needed..

Funny, it's not a great pic, in fact hardly looks like her. I'd ask Des, but then again, I'd rather not...

See, I was thinking just the opposite.
Someone with a proper sex drive will go out and actively pursue someone of the opposite sex.
Someone with a decreased sex drive will just beg other people to post pictures online.

You must be in college.

Don't worry, you will probably grow up one day, get a job, maybe even get married and have children :)

http://ucsdtriathlon.org/...rProfile&user=93

Yep, you'd be right there...

Is it really all about the money? I thought we had something special. sigh.

The 40+ AG'ers run into the aforementioned lack of libido.

Us late 20's AG'ers aren't into ourselves (relatively speaking), have well paying jobs, and still know how to have fun!

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My training

Hahaha, speak for yourself buddy. At 52 I'm having the time of my life, I'm just off clubbing, did a 54-mile ride and hard brick this morning, will be leading the Jack and Adams shop ride in the morning, 35-miles followed by another run... as for the other, well I'm not about to start discussing that in a troll thread on ST. Suffice to say my 32 year old GF from last year couldn't wait to come around this afternoon and show me her new ride, and no I don't mean a guy.

Older guys have a lot to offer, I'm not about to start an age flame war, but don't knock it until you've been there.

I ain't elite

I done 2 IMs and a been try'ing for 10+ yrs

I done gots a sex drive make the rabbits ashamed

Oh and I make double most mens at the work...

but that done meen nuttin.

Cuz I still a womens....


Oh well...

AP

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"How bad could it be?" - SimpleS

You need to put the wine down.

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I know I'm promiscuous, but in a classy way

I just finished an interview over at http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com about this topic. It is podcast #68 (about hormones and athletes).

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Ben Greenfield

Nutrition & Human Performance Advice
http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com