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Re: Do Pro/Ellte Women Have A Sex Drive??? [Im-a-miler] [ In reply to ]
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(note - the U23 was NOT her husband....Shhhhhhhhhhh ;-)

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: Do Pro/Ellte Women Have A Sex Drive??? [Jeff Spicoli] [ In reply to ]
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I'll delete this if I'm wrong but my understanding is female endurance athletes produce testosterone in mass quantities while men give it away in mass quantities. Am I even close?

Oh, and a non-elite female endurance athlete I once knew said she was absolutely ravenous when it came to sex, largely because of her training volume. Couldn't tell you first hand, but to paraphrase, that's what she said. Thus, I'd have to believe the top women let off that steam quite frequently.

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"The hero is someone in continual opposition to the status quo. The hero is always becoming himself." Jos� Ortega y Gasset.

"The enthusiasm (absorbing or controlling possession of the mind by any interest or pursuit) is needed before breaking the milestone and not after." Sergio Escutia, on Lukas Verzbicas' subdued reaction to breaking 4 minutes in the mile.
Last edited by: Kaka: Oct 14, 09 12:20
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Re: Do Pro/Ellte Women Have A Sex Drive??? [Kaka] [ In reply to ]
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I am by NO means elite, but I do know that the more I train the hornier I get. Never have had any complaints about that....
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Re: Do Pro/Ellte Women Have A Sex Drive??? [Hendon] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I am by NO means elite, but I do know that the more I train the hornier I get. Never have had any complaints about that....
Damn, I love this sport...

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"The hero is someone in continual opposition to the status quo. The hero is always becoming himself." Jos� Ortega y Gasset.

"The enthusiasm (absorbing or controlling possession of the mind by any interest or pursuit) is needed before breaking the milestone and not after." Sergio Escutia, on Lukas Verzbicas' subdued reaction to breaking 4 minutes in the mile.
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Re: Do Pro/Ellte Women Have A Sex Drive??? [Kaka] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
I am by NO means elite, but I do know that the more I train the hornier I get. Never have had any complaints about that....
Damn, I love this sport...
me too ;)
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Re: Do Pro/Ellte Women Have A Sex Drive??? [Hendon] [ In reply to ]
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the more I train the hornier I get

get back with us when you're over 50 and training for an IM. ;)

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Re: Do Pro/Ellte Women Have A Sex Drive??? [squid] [ In reply to ]
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too tired to wank = overtrained.
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Re: Do Pro/Ellte Women Have A Sex Drive??? [Kaka] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I'll delete this if I'm wrong but my understanding is female endurance athletes produce testosterone in mass quantities while men give it away in mass quantities. Am I even close?

Now I'm curious. I wish I had an ex phys text handy.

I don't think that statement is entirely true (but DON'T delete it, I'm hoping some of the smart people will chime in). If females produced boatloads of testosterone, we'd have huge muscles like you guys. The #1 argument that women like to tell other women for "you won't get huge bulky muscles from lifting" is "women don't have enough testosterone." And that argument is true.

However, whether female athletes produce MORE testosterone than their nonactive counterparts, I don't know.

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: Do Pro/Ellte Women Have A Sex Drive??? [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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as a general rule, weight lifting increases testosterone levels, not endurance training.

but don't tell Lehrner, he might have to go back to the weight room
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Re: Do Pro/Ellte Women Have A Sex Drive??? [Hendon] [ In reply to ]
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right. Lifting increases testosterone while you're doing the lifting...

does it increase testosterone OVERALL? or just in the blood @ that time?

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: Do Pro/Ellte Women Have A Sex Drive??? [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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if you measure directly after - and has to have a longer effect as it also increases growth hormone.
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Re: Do Pro/Ellte Women Have A Sex Drive??? [Hendon] [ In reply to ]
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Well, considering that you are a chiropractor and not a Doctor, how would you have any idea what the right way to treat an elite athlete with a decreased sex drive even is? An elite athlete with immune problems is not likely to present with an autoimmune disease, rather if they have immune problems they are going to present with impaired immunity. The loss of menstruation has typically been attributed to the female athlete "triad", whereby disordered eating, increased exercise and excessive weight loss cause a decrease in estrogen levels and consequently a loss of cyclic control. However, some new research is beginning to move away from this theory and argue that many elite female athletes actually lie closer to their male counterparts in that they have higher natural testosterone levels. This gives them many of the physical benefits that males enjoy over females, thus increasing their level of competitiveness.
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/104452.php
I wonder what Chrissie Wellington's Testosterone levels are like?
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Re: Do Pro/Ellte Women Have A Sex Drive??? [turtlesam] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Well, considering that you are a chiropractor and not a Doctor, how would you have any idea what the right way to treat an elite athlete with a decreased sex drive even is? An elite athlete with immune problems is not likely to present with an autoimmune disease, rather if they have immune problems they are going to present with impaired immunity. The loss of menstruation has typically been attributed to the female athlete "triad", whereby disordered eating, increased exercise and excessive weight loss cause a decrease in estrogen levels and consequently a loss of cyclic control. However, some new research is beginning to move away from this theory and argue that many elite female athletes actually lie closer to their male counterparts in that they have higher natural testosterone levels. This gives them many of the physical benefits that males enjoy over females, thus increasing their level of competitiveness.
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/104452.php
I wonder what Chrissie Wellington's Testosterone levels are like?
uhm I am not the chiropractor who started the thread.

I AM a medical doctor. And I have been asserting that sex drive does NOT decrease. so not sure why you aimed your response at me.
Whilst none of the athletes in my practice are elite, not one has complained of decreased sex drive.
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Re: Do Pro/Ellte Women Have A Sex Drive??? [Hendon] [ In reply to ]
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I AM a medical doctor. And I have been asserting that sex drive does NOT decrease. so not sure why you aimed your response at me.
Whilst none of the athletes in my practice are elite, not one has complained of decreased sex drive.

There IS a correlation between a decrease in sex drive and a high training load. We've had other threads on this. Just because you haven't seen it in your patients doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: Do Pro/Ellte Women Have A Sex Drive??? [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I AM a medical doctor. And I have been asserting that sex drive does NOT decrease. so not sure why you aimed your response at me.
Whilst none of the athletes in my practice are elite, not one has complained of decreased sex drive.

There IS a correlation between a decrease in sex drive and a high training load. We've had other threads on this. Just because you haven't seen it in your patients doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
Is this opinion based upon any data or just anecdotal forum threads? Do those threads differentiate between athletes who are eating disordered and have a high training load or all athletes with a high training load. Body dysmorphic disorder DOES affect sex drive and I would argue that that might be more at play than high training load.
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Re: Do Pro/Ellte Women Have A Sex Drive??? [Hendon] [ In reply to ]
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If you look in the Lore of Running, by Tim Noakes - a recognized exercise physiologist - you will note "decreased sex drive" under the list of overtraining/overreaching symptoms. It is mentioned in literature.

I agree that body image issues/disorders could be a factor in decreased sex drive, but in the threads we've had here it is usually men (far less likely to have eating disorders) commenting on the lack of sex drive.

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: Do Pro/Ellte Women Have A Sex Drive??? [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
If you look in the Lore of Running, by Tim Noakes - a recognized exercise physiologist - you will note "decreased sex drive" under the list of overtraining/overreaching symptoms. It is mentioned in literature.

I agree that body image issues/disorders could be a factor in decreased sex drive, but in the threads we've had here it is usually men (far less likely to have eating disorders) commenting on the lack of sex drive.
but THIS thread was about women.
Men and women are different physiologically and in how training stress affects them. The similarity is that the pituitary axis is affected, and overall reproduction suffers - which in MEN means less testosterone and in WOMEN means less estrogen:

From: Kronenberg: Williams Textbook of Endocrinology, 11th ed.; CHAPTER 25 - HORMONES AND ATHLETIC PERFORMANCE > ... > Hypothalamus-Pituitary-Gonadal Axis


Female Gonadal Axis
Circulating levels of testosterone, dehydroepiandrosterone, dehydroepiandrosterone sulphate, estradiol, growth hormone (GH), and cortisol have been shown to increase in response to an acute bout of endurance exercise in women. However, only GH, estradiol, and cortisol have been reported to increase following resistance exercise.[84]
Hyperandrogenism has been suggested as a possible alternative mechanism underlying oligomenorrhea or amenorrhea in some female athletes with menstrual disturbances.[85] Interestingly, hyperandrogenic female athletes have a more anabolic body composition and higher VO2max and performance values in comparison with female athletes with menstrual disturbances but normal androgen concentrations.[85]
Summary
The endocrine equilibrium that regulates reproductive function in women can be affected by physical and psychological factors. Many female athletes develop oligomenorrhea, amenorrhea, and luteal phase defects. Negative energy balance is the primary cause of the impairment of normal reproductive function commonly observed in female athletes. The link between negative energy balance and reproductive dysfunction is represented by leptin, which serves as a signal to the CNS with information on the critical amount of adipose tissue stores that is necessary for GnRH secretion and pubertal activation of the hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis. Possible alternative mechanisms underlying oligomenorrhea or amenorrhea in some female athletes include the stress-induced activation of the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis, endogenous opioid peptides, catecholestrogens, and hyperandrogenism.


In MEN testosterone decreases (and sometimes libido):

Male Gonadal Axis
Endurance training induces changes in the function of the reproductive axis in men in a similar manner to the changes in women. There is a subclinical inhibition of normal reproductive function but it is unclear whether clinical expression of reproductive suppression is common in men. Although measures of sperm function are generally normal in runners with very strenuous training regimens even with very low physiologic androgen levels,[56] there is evidence that males with a high level of physical activity have some abnormalities of semen analysis. [57] [58] Libido may also be reduced in some [male]athletes during intense endurance training periods; reduced testosterone levels but also chronic fatigue may play a role. [49] [56]
Summary
Short, intense exercise usually increases while prolonged exercise usually decreases serum testosterone levels. The exercise-associated increment in circulating testosterone does not seem to be mediated by LH. Possible mechanisms such as hemoconcentration, reduced clearance, and/or increased testosterone synthesis may be involved. A variety of systems could influence the testosterone decrease during and subsequent to more prolonged exercise, including decreased gonadotropins, increased cortisol or catecholamine levels, or even an accumulation of metabolic waste materials. The fall in serum testosterone results from decreased production rates, decreased binding, or increased clearance.
Endurance and other forms of training can induce subclinical inhibition of normal reproductive function. Libido may also be reduced in some [male]athletes during intense endurance training periods, due to reduced testosterone levels and to chronic fatigue.
Last edited by: Hendon: Oct 15, 09 5:16
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Re: Do Pro/Ellte Women Have A Sex Drive??? [Hendon] [ In reply to ]
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Okay. Thanks for the copied literature.

I'm not trying to argue with you; I'm merely stating that this phenomenon exists, in men and women.

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: Do Pro/Ellte Women Have A Sex Drive??? [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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Okay. Thanks for the copied literature.

I'm not trying to argue with you; I'm merely stating that this phenomenon exists, in men and women.
show me literature related to women with decreased libido NOT related to eating disorders - I suspect you will have difficulty finding it. The phenomenon is well known in MEN.
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Re: Do Pro/Ellte Women Have A Sex Drive??? [Hendon] [ In reply to ]
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I'm interested and will happily do research once I finish the schoolwork I've got to do for the day. But I'm inherently at a disadvantage, beacuse:

1. studies are commonly done with men, and usually college-aged men. There are several reasons for this, starting with historical that guys got to have all the fun (so to speak) and researchers assumed generality that they'd just take whatever they found in men and apply it in women (such, we know now, is not an appropriate generalization of research). Another reason to use college age men is a group of college age athletic men are quite easy to get one's paws on as research subjects.

2. Whether studies separated control and experimental groups by women with and without eating disorders is going to be hard to find. I might be able to find a study that looked at sex drive in female athletes, but who knows if they considered ED/non ED as a confounding variable.

3. It's easier to study lack of sex drive in men anyway... men ALWAYS want to have sex!

will get back to you later.

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: Do Pro/Ellte Women Have A Sex Drive??? [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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There is a fundamental problem with making statements which seem to be either directly stated or implied here; as I stated in an earlier reply. The problem is that making the statements based on human studies in an academic setting (the only place I have seen any study like this) lack the control and ‘pointedness’ to address the root cause; which will very likely end up being multifactorial. In order to gain a real understanding, you have to have a LARGE study group so that you can work the statistical magic that ferrets out the signal among the noise, or you have to have control over the system so that you can break down the question into component parts (such as an animal model (which has fewer issues than dealing with humans), cell culture, or some another study system).

I honestly am not knocking the question. What I am saying is that you have to take the literature with a very large grain of salt. For all the physicians, let me explain myself this way: If a patient comes in and has a list of symptoms, are you able to provide a diagnosis that you are sure is accurate? I would guess that for the majority of the time, you have to run additional tests to chase down educated guesses based on past experience and book learning. If everyone was the same in terms of physiology, then you would be more able to just make a diagnosis on symptoms based on the large body of information gathered from the past several hundred years of medicine. My base point is that each patient eats something different, lives in a different house, does different things, and may come from different genetic backgrounds which all can affect physiology during sickness or health. Therefore; the studies which look at complex problems like ‘sex drive’ are kind of bogus, and really just another piece of anecdotal evidence. Im not saying that doing this work is not difficult or does not take a lot of work, just that it does not tell as much as the authors might want it to mean.

Stephen J


I believe my local reality has been violated.
____________________________________________
Happiness = Results / (Expectations)^2
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Re: Do Pro/Ellte Women Have A Sex Drive??? [Jeff Spicoli] [ In reply to ]
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I have never made sweet, sweet lovin' to an elite female endurance athlete. From that I would have to conclude that they (as well as every other woman) have no sex drive. Keep in mind this is not a simple N=1 example, I have been rejected by countless women. It is a very large sample size.
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Re: Do Pro/Ellte Women Have A Sex Drive??? [Jeff Spicoli] [ In reply to ]
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They would if I had anything to do with it.



-All You Haters Suck My Balls-
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Re: Do Pro/Ellte Women Have A Sex Drive??? [Jeff Spicoli] [ In reply to ]
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not so anonymous...

I have 3 kids, 'nough said.

http://www.pbmcoaching.com
USA Triathlon Level 3 Elite Coach
USA Cycling Level 1 Elite Coach

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Re: Do Pro/Ellte Women Have A Sex Drive??? [Hendon] [ In reply to ]
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show me literature related to women with decreased libido NOT related to eating disorders -I suspect you will have difficulty finding it

Maybe I'm missing something here. You seem to be suggesting that all decreases in women's libidos are due to eating disorders. Correct?

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