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UPDATE - Altitude Training Shortcut?? - Mountain Might
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A few months ago I posted requesting peoples thoughts on how to best acclimatize for the UROC ultra marathon in Vail, CO knowing full well I would not be able to spend 3-4 weeks at altitude prior to the event. What followed was a really good discussion on best case scenarios given my situation.

Today, in another post, there was some mention of a product called "Mountain Might" that claims to be safe, effective and LEGAL. It claims to provide adaptation of the body to altitude AT SEA LEVEL in as little as 4 days.

Has anyone seen this stuff or personally tried it? I would like to know what outcome you had trying it. I am thinking of giving it a try when I run the Tahoe Rim Trail 50Mile run in July, coming from Sea Level the day before the race. At $50 a bottle I want to know if its snake oil or actually works.

Thanks,

UPDATE ON 7-22-13

LAST WEEKEND I TRIED MM OUT AT THE TAHOE RIM TRAIL 50 MILE RUN AND IT WORKED EXACTLY AS ADVERTIZED. IT FELT LIKE ANY OTHER HARD RUN, I REALLY DID NOT FEEL THE ALTITUDE ALL THAT MUCH. NO HEADACHE, NO THUMPING HEAD, SLIGHT SHORTNESS OF BREATH WHEN GOING UP SUPER STEEP SECTIONS, BUT THAT'S NORMAL FOR ME AT SEA LEVEL.

I WOULD DEFINITELY USE IT AGAIN WITHOUT A SECONT THOUGHT.

THANKS TO JASON FOR STEPPING UP AND OFFERING A FREE SAMPLE TO TRY. YOU HAVE A NEW CUSTOMER AND ADVOCATE !!



Dave Stark
dreamcatcher@astound.net
USAC & USAT level 2 certified coach
Last edited by: karma: Jul 22, 13 13:23
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Re: Altitude Training Shortcut?? - Mountain Might [karma] [ In reply to ]
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karma wrote:
A few months ago I posted requesting peoples thoughts on how to best acclimatize for the UROC ultra marathon in Vail, CO knowing full well I would not be able to spend 3-4 weeks at altitude prior to the event. What followed was a really good discussion on best case scenarios given my situation.

Today, in another post, there was some mention of a product called "Mountain Might" that claims to be safe, effective and LEGAL. It claims to provide adaptation of the body to altitude AT SEA LEVEL in as little as 4 days.

Has anyone seen this stuff or personally tried it? I would like to know what outcome you had trying it. I am thinking of giving it a try when I run the Tahoe Rim Trail 50Mile run in July, coming from Sea Level the day before the race. At $50 a bottle I want to know if its snake oil or actually works.

Thanks,

Based on the quality of their website I would be very skeptical.... actually, i would be VERY skeptical anyway! Why do you be the first STer to try and give us a report. Maybe they'll comp you a bottle?

D

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Re: Altitude Training Shortcut?? - Mountain Might [karma] [ In reply to ]
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Their 'scientific review' can be found http://mmaltitudetraining.com/...Mountain%20Might.pdf.

It all seems to be based on the theory that an amino acid, N-Acetylcysteine (NAC) induces the same physiological adaptations to red blood cell count and hemoglobin production as produced at prolonged exposure to altitude.

Here are the four primary of the ‘numerous’ clinical studies they say that demonstrate this fact:

· Kelly MK, Wicker RJ, Barstow TJ, Harms CA. Effects of N-acetylcysteine on respiratory muscle fatigue during heavy exercise. Respir Physiol Neurobiol. 2009 Jan 1;165(1):67-72.

· Zembron-Lacny, A, Slowinska-Lisowska M, Szygula Z, Witkowski K, Szyszka K. Physiol Res. 2008 The comparison of antioxidant and haematological properties of N-acetylcysteine and alpha-lipoic acid in physically active males. Physiological Research 58(Suppl. 6): 855-861.

· Gore, C.J., A.G. Hahn, R.J. Aughey, D.T. Martin, M.J. Ashenden, S.A. Clark, A.P. Garnham, A.D. Roberts, G.J. Slater, and M.J. McKenna. 2001. Live high:train low increases muscle buffering capacity and submaximal cycling efficiency. Acta Physiologica Scandinavica 173: 275-286

· Stray-Gundersen, J., R.F. Chapman, and B.D. Levine. 2001. “Living high-training low” altitude training improves sea level performance in male and female elite runners. Journal of Applied Physiology 91: 1113-1120.


Judging by the titles alone, it looks like only the first two actually specifically studied NAC while the other two seem to just be general studies on live high, train low based training.

I would be very interested for someone who deals with these sorts of things (clinical studies) to examine the veracity of these studies, especially the first two, to see if there really is any strong evidence that supports NAC having these sorts of demonstrable effects.
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Re: Altitude Training Shortcut?? - Mountain Might [karma] [ In reply to ]
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I should also add that the full ingredients are listed here:



So it's basically NAC, some basic vitamins/minerals and whatever the hell Hawthorn Berry Powder is. I'm not sure what percentage of the 1562mg of the 'Adaptive Altitude Complex' is NAC, but you can get 1000mg capsules on Amazon for 20 bucks.
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Re: Altitude Training Shortcut?? - Mountain Might [tgarson] [ In reply to ]
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That's a crapload of VitB12!


Dave Stark
dreamcatcher@astound.net
USAC & USAT level 2 certified coach
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Re: Altitude Training Shortcut?? - Mountain Might [karma] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, the DV% is staggering.

I don't know a ton about supplements so when I saw that I immediately did some googling to see if that was an unreasonable dose. It looks like all the common dosage sizes for B-12 supplements are all in the 1000-2000mcg range, so 625mcg is not unreasonable.

I guess the DV is just particularly out of whack for B12 versus what people actually supplement it for some reason.
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Re: Altitude Training Shortcut?? - Mountain Might [tgarson] [ In reply to ]
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While it is less of a scam than a 10,000 bicycle it's still horse hockey.
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Re: Altitude Training Shortcut?? - Mountain Might [RobertFontaine] [ In reply to ]
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that B-12 is not only a crapload, but also crap B-12. It's the synthetic that has been shown to have incredibly poor absorption into the body (this is what the cheaper B12 supplements use). Methylcobalamin is what you you want in any sort of B12 supplementation.

Not to knock this off track but being plant based I've done a ton of research around B12 as you do have to supplement.
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Re: Altitude Training Shortcut?? - Mountain Might [Skipjack] [ In reply to ]
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Hey guys,

I am the Director of Research at Alpine Performance Labs, the makers of Mountain Might. I just found this forum and thought I would contribute. So there appears to skepticism about the efficacy of the product. Rightfully so, a natural pill the promises to provide the benefits of high altitude training is not something I would believe without tons of evidence. N-acetylcysteine has been shown to increase the red blood cell and hemoglobin counts of trained athletes in clinical studies by 9% at dosages of 600 to 1200 mgs as well as induce what is called the hypoxic ventilatory response. Mountain Might has a near identical dosage to 1200 mg. These are the two primary adaptations to high altitude that increase arterial blood 02 carrying capacity and saturation. 3-4 week LH, TL altitude training studies typically result in 3-9% increases in red blood cells and hemoglobin. NAC becomes converted to molecule generated by your red blood cells when they are undersaturated with 02. Blood oxygen sensors detect this molecule signal the kidneys to produce EPO and the hypothalmus to increase respiratory rate and volume. Another ingredient in Mountain Might is sodium phosphate, which has been shown in multiple clinical studies to increase synthesis of 2,3 diglycerophosphate. This enzyme is also produced by the body to acclimatize to altitude. It alters the affinity that hemoglobin has to oxygen enabling it to deliver it more readily to tissues. NAC and sodium phosphate have a synergistic relationship in the body. NAC increases respiration which also increases 2,3 DPG synthesis. Hawthorne berry extract is a heart tonic that strengthens cardiac output (also confirmed by multiple clinical studies). Mountaineers have been taking this as a stand alone sup for years because it helps modulate the cardiac response to altitude which negatively impacts performance. Iron and vitamin B are provided in safe dosages that will prevent common deficiencies that would preclude acclimatization. Our product has been on the market for 2 1/2 months. So far every single customer that has bought it, has become a repeat customer. We have been absolutely delighted by the appreciation our customers have given us. Simply look at our Twitter page and see people thanking us for how well it works. And no we did not pay or tell them to say those things. If you are still skeptical about the product just check out the scientific review on our website. It is more thorough and detailed than any supporting document for a supplement that I have ever seen. Thank you for your interest in Mountain Might and we welcome any questions! Jason
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Re: Altitude Training Shortcut?? - Mountain Might [karma] [ In reply to ]
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Hey Dave,

I work for the company that makes Mountain Might. Email me at keckjs2233@gmail.com and I will send you over a free bottle. I assure you the product works and made a post below touching on the science. Feel free to email me any questions as well. I have lectured multiple sports physiologists about high altitude training and can answer anything on the topic.

Thanks for your interest,

Jason
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Re: Altitude Training Shortcut?? - Mountain Might [keckjs2233] [ In reply to ]
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Couple of questions:

  1. LInk to your website and the paper
  2. It sounds like doping. Something for nothing always seems like a bad thing. I'm sceptical that if it is that good it does not get banned soon (I may be wrong, which is why I want to read the scientific literature)

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Re: Altitude Training Shortcut?? - Mountain Might [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Scientific Review:
http://mmaltitudetraining.com/...Mountain%20Might.pdf

Website: http://www.mmaltitudetraining.com/

Legality:
Mountain Might has been approved by the Banned Substance Control Group---meaning legal under WADA and every other list
Ingredient legality boils down to 2 things.
1. Safe? Yes NAC is also a precursor to glutathione the body's most potent antioxidant. NAC has been successfully used to treat mental illness, HIV, COPD, and other ailments and does not have any side effects in any of the many many studies on humans. Making it illegal would deny athletes their right to health.
2. Violate the spirit of competition. This is WADA's way of saying does it improve performance to a degree that makes it unfair. No, it doesn't. There are other supplements such as beta-alanine that will improve performance comparably, (NAC improves time to exhaustion by 23.8%). You may think its unfair because it increases your RBC count. It does not increase it to the degree that an EPO injection would, which is also what makes it safe. There are tons of legal supplements that can naturally increase testosterone. These will also likely never be banned, even though they seem like controversial because testosterone is a banned substance. This is because they do it in a way that is natural and safe.

Thanks again for your interest!
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Re: Altitude Training Shortcut?? - Mountain Might [dmounts] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for pointing out that our website needs work :)
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Re: Altitude Training Shortcut?? - Mountain Might [keckjs2233] [ In reply to ]
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Hey guys,

This is Jason Keck again from Alpine Performance Labs. Due to a relatively high volume of free sample requests prompted by this forum I am going to have to end the free sample offer this Friday, June 14th @ 4 pm. We appreciate everyone's interest in our product and wish you the best with your training.

Another quick tip: we have been experimenting with apnea training as an alternative to intermittent hypoxic exposure/training. Free-divers do it to expand lung capacity and improve breath holding ability. Many of these divers are now teaching classes to endurance athletes to improve their oxygen efficiency. If you dig through the literature, which is limited at this point, you will find that a lot of the biological benefits are nearly identical to that of altitude training, specifically IHT. There are a variety of techniques, but if you want to learn the best place to start is by reading Breatheology, by Stig Severinsen. I have been performing an apnea training practice for a month and tested pre and post blood oxygen levels in response to 20,000 ft and the results have been promising. We have only tested it on myself and other athletes, but I do think there will be more and more evidence suggesting it to be a great training tool for both endurance races and high altitude comps.

Also, here is a link to join our newsletter:eepurl.com/yFpe5
By joining it you will receive a free copy of our upcoming guide to the basics of high altitude training. Its going to be science based, but a lot of practical info you can implement into your training. I think it will be done by mid-July.

Live High, Train Harder!
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Re: Altitude Training Shortcut?? - Mountain Might [keckjs2233] [ In reply to ]
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1. When will you conduct the double-blind trials?
2. If it's that good why isn't the USOC & member NGBs involved in endurance sports clamoring over it.
3. Provide us with good science, with a large enough sample size & rigorous testing procedures. Otherwise it's just a supplement that is not required to have any hard science behind its marketing statements.

#swimmingmatters
Laugh hard. Run fast. Be kind.
The Doctor (#12)

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Re: Altitude Training Shortcut?? - Mountain Might [LazyEP] [ In reply to ]
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1. I do not know when the double blind trials will be conducted. If my company conducted it, it would have no perceived scientific weight because of the inherent bias of a manufacturer conducting a study on its own product. Currently, to do it correctly through an independent physiology lab with a large sample size would deplete my entire company's budget multiple times over. I could possibly arrange a sports physiology graduate student to do it as his thesis, but it would likely never be published for that reason. We would rather wait until we can comfortably afford it since our sales are currently strong without it. Each active ingredient has been independently studied in multiple clinical trials and shown to induce a biological adaptation to altitude with a resulting performance improvement. The result of these trials combined with a known biological mechanism of action for each ingredient and the fact that there is a clinically active amount of each ingredient in Mountain Might are extremely compelling evidence for its efficacy. Again, our formulation process and the body of scientific evidence supporting Mountain Might is documented in our Scientific Review, which I posted above.

2. I do not know a definitive answer to this question. If I were to conjecture I would say first say that the product has only been out for a few months and our marketing department needs to be beefed up so they may have not even heard about it. There may also be an illusion that the company's you mentioned are an all seeing eye. As I said earlier Mountain Might safely and naturally induces hematological improvements of altitude training, unlike an injection of synthetic erythropoietin.

3. I have provided you with you science in our scientific review. This science involves a thorough review of clinical literature that contain large sample sizes about the ingredients in Mountain Might. It also quantitatively compares these benefits to that of the most successful LH,TL altitude training studies. If you read the Scientific Review you will see that we have done our due diligence and that the scientific evidence is very compelling. I understand your knee-jerk skepticism because, yes, there are a ton of products out there with bogus marketing claims, especially in regard to altitude training. I have personally made believers out of a several sports physiologist who were highly skeptical at first. Again, if you read the evidence you will come to the conclusion that this is not just a supplement with unsupported marketing claims.
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Re: UPDATE - Altitude Training Shortcut?? - Mountain Might [karma] [ In reply to ]
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UPDATE ON 7-22-13

LAST WEEKEND I TRIED MM OUT AT THE TAHOE RIM TRAIL 50 MILE RUN AND IT WORKED EXACTLY AS ADVERTIZED. IT FELT LIKE ANY OTHER HARD RUN, I REALLY DID NOT FEEL THE ALTITUDE ALL THAT MUCH. NO HEADACHE, NO THUMPING HEAD, SLIGHT SHORTNESS OF BREATH WHEN GOING UP SUPER STEEP SECTIONS, BUT THAT'S NORMAL FOR ME AT SEA LEVEL.

I WOULD DEFINITELY USE IT AGAIN WITHOUT A SECOND THOUGHT.

THANKS TO JASON FOR STEPPING UP AND OFFERING A FREE SAMPLE TO TRY. YOU HAVE A NEW CUSTOMER AND ADVOCATE !!



Dave Stark
dreamcatcher@astound.net
USAC & USAT level 2 certified coach
Last edited by: karma: Jul 22, 13 13:36
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