I believe a 10 minute improvement from 2:45 to 2:34 in an actual race counts actual improvement. So, it would seem would be actual improvements seen in training or testing. If your routine training pace improves from 8:30 to 7 min/mile would you deny that represents an improvement? Therefore, it seems that the approximate 2 and 4 second improvements reported by Wesley Fox, seen in training, should count for something, even if it hasn't been demonstrated in a race yet. Would you deny an improvement exists if someone had a power meter and stated, before PC's I never could sustain above x watts, but now in training I am sustaining 20% greater than x watts? Or in testing they notice an increase in FTP of 40 watts. Then, they go to LP and have a terrible day because they got cold. Does that bad race mean they really are not better? I mean, how many threads are there here regarding "If my FTP is X how fast should I be able to do a 40k TT in?"?

So, I agree, it is not correct to call someone an 8:xx IMer if they have not done an 8:xx IM. But, it is not necessarily incorrect to say that based upon training data it cannot be said that someones potential has improved to the point that they think they can now do an 8:xx IM, especially when it is reasonably supported by extrapolation of results in shorter races. Race results are not the only metric by which improvement can be measured (why all this fixation on FTP testing?). In fact, they are a pretty poor metric of overall fitness or potential (especially if one races infrequently) unless one has a very good day since so much can cause a bad result on race day.

---

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Muffintop....I have 2 words for you: Esprit Irondistance

2nd week of Sep in Montreal

If a plug like me can do a 4:14 on that Half Ironman course, you can go pretty fast there for the full....especially after the 9 flat at IMLP.

Understanding that Kona is your A race, I don't expect you to show up, but heck, if you have nothing better to do, join Desertdude, Murphy's law, MTL and a huge cross section of ST studs at this "certain to be a PB" demi-esprit race. I believe Pierre Lavoie who raced behind ya in the pro field when 4 flat last year, 1 weekend after being 2nd overall at Louisville.

As for claims, I agree with you. Nothinng counts until you get it done!

Dev

Man, that would be cool. I'll be in Las Cruces that weekend, though.
I did IMFL last season, it went rather less well than I had hoped but I did manage to squeak under 9 there (along with 30 of my closest friends, haha). How is the drafting situation at the Esprit triathlon compared to IMFL?

C'mon Frank, lots of products have proof. From when i started racing to now I've bought aerowheels (proven in a windtunnel), skinsuits (wt), aerobars (easily proven by riding multiple laps with and results on a course, power meter (a bit difference, I don't expect it to make me faster, but its a training tool to allow me to train more effectively, which it certainly does, aerobike (wt) various light parts (simple physics), etc.

Everytime someone comes out with a new design for ma bike or part people demand data, its hardly only PC. Your product suffers because its intrinsically difficult to determine if they help or not, ie you need to do a study over a year, you can't just put two bikes in a wt and se an improvement.

Styrrell.

---

Styrrell

I would say that at Esprit at least where I have been on the track, there is no drafting. There are 20 in the half going pretty fast and only 5-10 in the full Ironman riding FOP speeds. Things get spread out in the FOP over 4.5K track. It is cool racing on a Formula 1 track and swimming in an Olympic rowing basin.

What you have is a huge slingshot effect!

With tailwind I am riding 40-50 kph. The riders a bit slower, who are 1-3 laps back are riding 30-40. There is a huge slingshot effect as you spend the entire ride passing people regardless of your speed. Into the headwind sections when I am doing 30-38 kph, the slightly slower riders are doing 25-35. So you can see that it is like you are racing in a continuous slipstream, but never drafting because you are constantly passing. The times are dependent on the wind direction and rain....my splits in the last 3 years were 2:16 (with a flat and quick wheel change and neutral support), 2:11, 2:17 (really wet rain soaked with hairpin turn being super slick.....15-20 kph vs 30-35 kph when dry....repeat that 20 times and you have the diff between a 2:11 and 2:17 split). The course is also ~1.5K short on the bike....but hey, you take the fast days with the slow days.

The only reason to show up at Esprit is that it is shitload of fun, you get to party in Montreal and you end up with a silly fast time to add to your tri resume....what's not to like about that :-). I realize it is a stretch coming out all the way from Colorado/New Mexico for a race with no prize money, but if you want to make a mini vacation, it is lots of fun.

Dev

Good times...good times.

http://www.letsrun.com/...d.php?thread=2599097

OH man..... fresh meat:)

Thanks for the entertainment.

---

Steve

http://www.PeaksCoachingGroup.com

That's just... beautiful. Looks like a lot of the posters there noticed the price first.

Even if you buy into the snake oil, SmartCranks go for $400 cheaper, anyways: http://www.smartcranks.com/main_e.htm So buy those instead of supporting SlowTwitch forum spam.

And while I was googling for SmartCranks, I found the following fun study:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18273633 (5 weeks on SmartCranks)


Looks like they failed to call a certain Spanish rider who has PowerTap files to prove his delightful PowerCrank-caused FTP improvements!

---

--
"Rock and roll, dude." -- Dave Z., on winning TTs in all 3 Grand Tours.

Well, well, this should be "fun" over on Letsrun.com. An A.C. type running know-it-all has challenged me to provide cranks for him to train on for 3 months to see what happens. I have taken him up on the offer. I guess he really isn't an A.C. type after-all. He is open minded enough to use them as I specify for 3 months to see what happens.

Not sure how good he is now but it sounds like he is pretty good as a runner. Should be interesting.

---

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Clearly not - if he were, he'd be smart enough to not waste his time in the first place.