Have you been reading the papers? THE ONE THING EVERYONE Was clear on was that he was a butcher, the weapons were the only thing people had some uncertainty about, and he's been doing this for 25-30 years.

Hell he was gassing people, torturing people for sport and we did not lift a finger, not one, just sanctions. Yes I think I can be reasonably confident that we'd have done sweet FA were there not the weapons.

Rwanda and Kosovo were different in that both were internal wars / conflicts, there was no conflict in Iraq, he just killed people and kept them in line and that has not been enough in the past for coutries to go in and do something about it.

U.N. Security Council Resolution 1441

Security Council Tightens Iraqi Disarmament Regime

United Nations -- The Security Council unanimously adopted a resolution November 8 strengthening the weapons inspection regime for Iraq and giving Baghdad, in the words of the resolution, "a final opportunity to comply with its disarmament obligations."

The resolution, number 1441, establishes an enhanced inspection regime for Iraq's disarmament, which will be carried out by the U.N. Monitoring, Verification, and Inspection Commission (UNMOVIC) and the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA).

All 15 council members voted for the resolution: permanent members China, France, Russia, the United Kingdom, and the United States; and non-permanent members Bulgaria, Cameroon, Colombia, Guinea, Ireland, Mauritius, Mexico, Norway, Singapore, and Syria.

The resolution states that Iraq remains in material breach of council resolutions relating to Iraq's 1990 invasion of Kuwait and requires that Baghdad give UNMOVIC and IAEA a complete and accurate declaration of all aspects of its chemical, biological and nuclear weapons programs and ballistic missiles systems, as well as information on other chemical, biological, and nuclear programs that are supposed to be for civilian purposes, within 30 days.

It gives UNMOVIC and IAEA, among other things, unrestricted rights of entry and travel into and throughout Iraq; provides for U.N. security for the inspectors; gives the inspectors the right to freeze sites and declare exclusion zones; and gives them the right to conduct interviews, either inside or outside the country, without the presence of Iraqi officials. Most importantly, it gives the inspectors immediate, unconditional, and unrestricted access to all sites in Iraq, including so-called presidential sites.

The resolution directs Hans Blix, executive chairman of UNMOVIC, and Mohamed ElBaradei, IAEA director general, to "report immediately to the council any interference by Iraq with inspection activities as well as any failure by Iraq to comply with its disarmament obligations." The council will then "convene immediately ... in order to consider the situation and the need for full compliance with all of the relevant council resolutions in order to secure international peace and security," it says.

Finally, it warns Iraq that "it will face serious consequences" if it continues to violate its obligations as spelled out in the resolution.

Following is the text of the resolution:



The Security Council,

Recalling all its previous relevant resolutions, in particular its resolutions 661 (1990) of 6 August 1990, 678 (1990) of 29 November 1990, 686 (1991) of 2 March 1991, 687 (1991) of 3 April 1991, 688 (1991) of 5 April 1991, 707 (1991) of 15 August 1991, 715 (1991) of 11 October 1991, 986 (1995) of 14 April 1995, and 1284 (1999) of 17 December 1999, and all the relevant statements of its President,

Recalling also its resolution 1382 (2001) of 29 November 2001 and its intention to implement it fully,

Recognizing the threat Iraq's noncompliance with Council resolutions and proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and long-range missiles poses to international peace and security,

Recalling that its resolution 678 (1990) authorized Member States to use all necessary means to uphold and implement its resolution 660 (1990) of 2 August 1990 and all relevant resolutions subsequent to Resolution 660 (1990) and to restore international peace and security in the area,

Further recalling that its resolution 687 (1991) imposed obligations on Iraq as a necessary step for achievement of its stated objective of restoring international peace and security in the area,

Deploring the fact that Iraq has not provided an accurate, full, final, and complete disclosure, as required by resolution 687 (1991), of all aspects of its programmes to develop weapons of mass destruction and ballistic missiles with a range greater than one hundred and fifty kilometres, and of all holdings of such weapons, their components and production facilities and locations, as well as all other nuclear programmes, including any which it claims are for purposes not related to nuclear-weapons-usable material,

Deploring further that Iraq repeatedly obstructed immediate, unconditional, and unrestricted access to sites designated by the United Nations Special Commission (UNSCOM) and the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), failed to cooperate fully and unconditionally with UNSCOM and IAEA weapons inspectors, as required by resolution 687 (1991), and ultimately ceased all cooperation with UNSCOM and the IAEA in 1998,

Deploring the absence, since December 1998, in Iraq of international monitoring, inspection, and verification, as required by relevant resolutions, of weapons of mass destruction and ballistic missiles, in spite of the Council's repeated demands that Iraq provide immediate, unconditional, and unrestricted access to the United Nations Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission (UNMOVIC), established in resolution 1284 (1999) as the successor organization to UNSCOM, and the IAEA, and regretting the consequent prolonging of the crisis in the region and the suffering of the Iraqi people,

Deploring also that the Government of Iraq has failed to comply with its commitments pursuant to resolution 687 (1991) with regard to terrorism, pursuant to resolution 688 (1991) to end repression of its civilian population and to provide access by international humanitarian organizations to all those in need of assistance in Iraq, and pursuant to resolutions 686 (1991), 687 (1991), and 1284 (1999) to return or cooperate in accounting for Kuwaiti and third country nationals wrongfully detained by Iraq, or to return Kuwaiti property wrongfully seized by Iraq,

Recalling that in its resolution 687 (1991) the Council declared that a ceasefire would be based on acceptance by Iraq of the provisions of that resolution, including the obligations on Iraq contained therein,

Determined to ensure full and immediate compliance by Iraq without conditions or restrictions with its obligations under resolution 687 (1991) and other relevant resolutions and recalling that the resolutions of the Council constitute the governing standard of Iraqi compliance,

Recalling that the effective operation of UNMOVIC, as the successor organization to the Special Commission, and the IAEA is essential for the implementation of resolution 687 (1991) and other relevant resolutions,

Noting the letter dated 16 September 2002 from the Minister for Foreign Affairs of Iraq addressed to the Secretary General is a necessary first step toward rectifying Iraq's continued failure to comply with relevant Council resolutions,

Noting further the letter dated 8 October 2002 from the Executive Chairman of UNMOVIC and the Director General of the IAEA to General Al-Saadi of the Government of Iraq laying out the practical arrangements, as a follow-up to their meeting in Vienna, that are prerequisites for the resumption of inspections in Iraq by UNMOVIC and the IAEA, and expressing the gravest concern at the continued failure by the Government of Iraq to provide confirmation of the arrangements as laid out in that letter,

Reaffirming the commitment of all Member States to the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Iraq, Kuwait, and the neighbouring States,

Commending the Secretary General and members of the League of Arab States and its Secretary General for their efforts in this regard,

Determined to secure full compliance with its decisions,

Acting under Chapter VII of the Charter of the United Nations,

1. Decides that Iraq has been and remains in material breach of its obligations under relevant resolutions, including resolution 687 (1991), in particular through Iraq's failure to cooperate with United Nations inspectors and the IAEA, and to complete the actions required under paragraphs 8 to 13 of resolution 687 (1991);



2. Decides, while acknowledging paragraph 1 above, to afford Iraq, by this resolution, a final opportunity to comply with its disarmament obligations under relevant resolutions of the Council; and accordingly decides to set up an enhanced inspection regime with the aim of bringing to full and verified completion the disarmament process established by resolution 687 (1991) and subsequent resolutions of the Council;

3. Decides that, in order to begin to comply with its disarmament obligations, in addition to submitting the required biannual declarations, the Government of Iraq shall provide to UNMOVIC, the IAEA, and the Council, not later than 30 days from the date of this resolution, a currently accurate, full, and complete declaration of all aspects of its programmes to develop chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons, ballistic missiles, and other delivery systems such as unmanned aerial vehicles and dispersal systems designed for use on aircraft, including any holdings and precise locations of such weapons, components, sub-components, stocks of agents, and related material and equipment, the locations and work of its research, development and production facilities, as well as all other chemical, biological, and nuclear programmes, including any which it claims are for purposes not related to weapon production or material;

4. Decides that false statements or omissions in the declarations submitted by Iraq pursuant to this resolution and failure by Iraq at any time to comply with, and cooperate fully in the implementation of, this resolution shall constitute a further material breach of Iraq's obligations and will be reported to the Council for assessment in accordance with paragraphs 11 and 12 below;

5. Decides that Iraq shall provide UNMOVIC and the IAEA immediate, unimpeded, unconditional, and unrestricted access to any and all, including underground, areas, facilities, buildings, equipment, records, and means of transport which they wish to inspect, as well as immediate, unimpeded, unrestricted, and private access to all officials and other persons whom UNMOVIC or the IAEA wish to interview in the mode or location of UNMOVIC's or the IAEA's choice pursuant to any aspect of their mandates; further decides that UNMOVIC and the IAEA may at their discretion conduct interviews inside or outside of Iraq, may facilitate the travel of those interviewed and family members outside of Iraq, and that, at the sole discretion of UNMOVIC and the IAEA, such interviews may occur without the presence of observers from the Iraqi government; and instructs UNMOVIC and requests the IAEA to resume inspections no later than 45 days following adoption of this resolution and to update the Council 60 days thereafter;

6. Endorses the 8 October 2002 letter from the Executive Chairman of UNMOVIC and the Director General of the IAEA to General Al-Saadi of the Government of Iraq, which is annexed hereto, and decides that the contents of the letter shall be binding upon Iraq;

7. Decides further that, in view of the prolonged interruption by Iraq of the presence of UNMOVIC and the IAEA and in order for them to accomplish the tasks set forth in this resolution and all previous relevant resolutions and notwithstanding prior understandings, the Council hereby establishes the following revised or additional authorities, which shall be binding upon Iraq, to facilitate their work in Iraq:


• UNMOVIC and the IAEA shall determine the composition of their inspection teams and ensure that these teams are composed of the most qualified and experienced experts available;
  
  
  
  
• All UNMOVIC and IAEA personnel shall enjoy the privileges and immunities, corresponding to those of experts on mission, provided in the Convention on Privileges and Immunities of the United Nations and the Agreement on the Privileges and Immunities of the IAEA;
  
  
  
  
• UNMOVIC and the IAEA shall have unrestricted rights of entry into and out of Iraq, the right to free, unrestricted, and immediate movement to and from inspection sites, and the right to inspect any sites and buildings, including immediate, unimpeded, unconditional, and unrestricted access to Presidential Sites equal to that at other sites, notwithstanding the provisions of resolution 1154 (1998);
  
  
  
  
• UNMOVIC and the IAEA shall have the right to be provided by Iraq the names of all personnel currently and formerly associated with Iraq's chemical, biological, nuclear, and ballistic missile programmes and the associated research, development, and production facilities;
  
  
  
  
• Security of UNMOVIC and IAEA facilities shall be ensured by sufficient UN security guards;
  
  
  
  
• UNMOVIC and the IAEA shall have the right to declare, for the purposes of freezing a site to be inspected, exclusion zones, including surrounding areas and transit corridors, in which Iraq will suspend ground and aerial movement so that nothing is changed in or taken out of a site being inspected;
  
  
  
  
• UNMOVIC and the IAEA shall have the free and unrestricted use and landing of fixed- and rotary-winged aircraft, including manned and unmanned reconnaissance vehicles;
  
  
  
  
• UNMOVIC and the IAEA shall have the right at their sole discretion verifiably to remove, destroy, or render harmless all prohibited weapons, subsystems, components, records, materials, and other related items, and the right to impound or close any facilities or equipment for the production thereof; and
  
  
  
  
• UNMOVIC and the IAEA shall have the right to free import and use of equipment or materials for inspections and to seize and export any equipment, materials, or documents taken during inspections, without search of UNMOVIC or IAEA personnel or official or personal baggage;




8. Decides further that Iraq shall not take or threaten hostile acts directed against any representative or personnel of the United Nations or the IAEA or of any Member State taking action to uphold any Council resolution;

9. Requests the Secretary General immediately to notify Iraq of this resolution, which is binding on Iraq; demands that Iraq confirm within seven days of that notification its intention to comply fully with this resolution; and demands further that Iraq cooperate immediately, unconditionally, and actively with UNMOVIC and the IAEA;

10. Requests all Member States to give full support to UNMOVIC and the IAEA in the discharge of their mandates, including by providing any information related to prohibited programmes or other aspects of their mandates, including on Iraqi attempts since 1998 to acquire prohibited items, and by reCommending sites to be inspected, persons to be interviewed, conditions of such interviews, and data to be collected, the results of which shall be reported to the Council by UNMOVIC and the IAEA;

11. Directs the Executive Chairman of UNMOVIC and the Director General of the IAEA to report immediately to the Council any interference by Iraq with inspection activities, as well as any failure by Iraq to comply with its disarmament obligations, including its obligations regarding inspections under this resolution;

12. Decides to convene immediately upon receipt of a report in accordance with paragraphs 4 or 11 above, in order to consider the situation and the need for full compliance with all of the relevant Council resolutions in order to secure international peace and security;

13. Recalls, in that context, that the Council has repeatedly warned Iraq that it will face serious consequences as a result of its continued violations of its obligations;

14. Decides to remain seized of the matter.

Top work TRI. You're a real champ.

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"Language most shows a man: Speak, that I may see thee. It springs out of the most retired and inmost parts of us, and is the image of the parents of it, the mind. No glass so mirrors a man's form or likeness so true as his speech." - Ben Jonson, Timber, or Discoveries made upon Men and Matter.

truly, nothing anyone says can piss me off more than how pissed I am after a crap race despite training my butt off. so no harm done.

well except sending Jerry Lewis to France :-)

French President Jacques Chirac said he remained steadfastly opposed to war against Baghdad without giving U.N. weapons inspectors searching for banned weapons as much time they need to do their work.

When asked how much time -- weeks or months -- weapons inspectors should have, Chirac responded: "I can't put a timeframe on it. It's up to them to decide," Chirac said.

"There is still much to be done in the way of disarmament by peaceful means," Chirac said.

I wonder if Chirac ever read any of the resolutions that the UN passed.

And while we're at it I'd like to add my apology for yesterday's attack. I was having a really, really, really bad day (today isn't much better), but thas does not excuse my spraying you and your countrymen with verbal schrapnel. While I still hold my same views on the war, I cannot justify my personal attack. Heck, I even went to school and lived in France for a year. I love all things French. Well maybe not everything. The French women weren't shaving their armpit hair yet back then. I found that a bit off putting. Although, if I remember correctly I got past that as well!

Truce!!

no worries, the trouble with these types of situation is that everyone gets carried away. I guess it is just human nature. So I guess it my time to apologize to Gary in SD for a post with lots of f..k a few days back.

We should all be happy to live in a place where we can still stay what we think about war, no war etc...
That said, I prefer your countrymen in general than mine...otherwise I would live here, would not do research for the US, etc...

as for the armpit thing...I know it's one of the urban legends on France, but truly you guys were unlucky...
that never happened to me...

Sorry Francois, I don't like the way you have been spoken to on this thread, but I can't let this pass.

Commerce with Iraq and the US over the last 12 years in violation of the sanctions? Not that I have ever heard. You are going to have to document that.

No Francois, everyone doesn't do it. Russia, France and Germany are going to have to fess up on their own. Had everyone observed these sanctions, this war would have likely not been necessary.

Please accept my apologies for some of the posts on this thread. You don't deserve them.

The News We Kept to Ourselves

By EASON JORDAN


TLANTA — Over the last dozen years I made 13 trips to Baghdad to lobby the government to keep CNN's Baghdad bureau open and to arrange interviews with Iraqi leaders. Each time I visited, I became more distressed by what I saw and heard — awful things that could not be reported because doing so would have jeopardized the lives of Iraqis, particularly those on our Baghdad staff.

For example, in the mid-1990's one of our Iraqi cameramen was abducted. For weeks he was beaten and subjected to electroshock torture in the basement of a secret police headquarters because he refused to confirm the government's ludicrous suspicion that I was the Central Intelligence Agency's Iraq station chief. CNN had been in Baghdad long enough to know that telling the world about the torture of one of its employees would almost certainly have gotten him killed and put his family and co-workers at grave risk.

Working for a foreign news organization provided Iraqi citizens no protection. The secret police terrorized Iraqis working for international press services who were courageous enough to try to provide accurate reporting. Some vanished, never to be heard from again. Others disappeared and then surfaced later with whispered tales of being hauled off and tortured in unimaginable ways. Obviously, other news organizations were in the same bind we were when it came to reporting on their own workers.

We also had to worry that our reporting might endanger Iraqis not on our payroll. I knew that CNN could not report that Saddam Hussein's eldest son, Uday, told me in 1995 that he intended to assassinate two of his brothers-in-law who had defected and also the man giving them asylum, King Hussein of Jordan. If we had gone with the story, I was sure he would have responded by killing the Iraqi translator who was the only other participant in the meeting. After all, secret police thugs brutalized even senior officials of the Information Ministry, just to keep them in line (one such official has long been missing all his fingernails).

Still, I felt I had a moral obligation to warn Jordan's monarch, and I did so the next day. King Hussein dismissed the threat as a madman's rant. A few months later Uday lured the brothers-in-law back to Baghdad; they were soon killed.

I came to know several Iraqi officials well enough that they confided in me that Saddam Hussein was a maniac who had to be removed. One Foreign Ministry officer told me of a colleague who, finding out his brother had been executed by the regime, was forced, as a test of loyalty, to write a letter of congratulations on the act to Saddam Hussein. An aide to Uday once told me why he had no front teeth: henchmen had ripped them out with pliers and told him never to wear dentures, so he would always remember the price to be paid for upsetting his boss. Again, we could not broadcast anything these men said to us.

Last December, when I told Information Minister Muhammad Said al-Sahhaf that we intended to send reporters to Kurdish-controlled northern Iraq, he warned me they would "suffer the severest possible consequences." CNN went ahead, and in March, Kurdish officials presented us with evidence that they had thwarted an armed attack on our quarters in Erbil. This included videotaped confessions of two men identifying themselves as Iraqi intelligence agents who said their bosses in Baghdad told them the hotel actually housed C.I.A. and Israeli agents. The Kurds offered to let us interview the suspects on camera, but we refused, for fear of endangering our staff in Baghdad.

Then there were the events that were not unreported but that nonetheless still haunt me. A 31-year-old Kuwaiti woman, Asrar Qabandi, was captured by Iraqi secret police occupying her country in 1990 for "crimes," one of which included speaking with CNN on the phone. They beat her daily for two months, forcing her father to watch. In January 1991, on the eve of the American-led offensive, they smashed her skull and tore her body apart limb by limb. A plastic bag containing her body parts was left on the doorstep of her family's home.

I felt awful having these stories bottled up inside me. Now that Saddam Hussein's regime is gone, I suspect we will hear many, many more gut-wrenching tales from Iraqis about the decades of torment. At last, these stories can be told freely.

Eason Jordan is chief news executive at CNN.

This article stunned me. Not the substance of it mind you. I always knew that CNN prostituted their coverage to keep their visas. What stunned me is that a guy at this level would admit to all this. I don't buy the clearing the conscience bit. I assume is more of a CYA article, since the truth will now start flooding out. France and the rest of them will follow suit. Then will come the "everyone does it" Bill Clinton defense.

At least the guy could have had the tone of his news coverage reflect what he knew to be the reality even if he couldn't report specifics. Instead they treat the White House like it is populated by liars and Iraq like a victim.

No wonder their ratings are in the toilet. They have no credibility.

Actually I think you missed my sarcasm, damn internet message boards anyway. Over 500,000 people were killed in a matter of months in Rwanda and no one did a flippin thing about it. Of course afterwards several countries, including the US expressed their "regrets" that we didn't move sooner, I'm sure that makes the dead people and their families feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

I had several immigration clients from the area and I'm not sure I can properly convey the type of destruction that went on. Charles Taylor has been terrorizing Liberia since the early 90's and no one cares. People are denied political asylum because he was "elected", well if memory serves Sadaam won an election recently as well. Central and Western Africa have no natural resources of note and hold no strategic military advantage so no one gives a rat's ass. I doubt most of the foreign policy experts on here have even heard of the destruction in Central Africa.

Rant mode off.

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

the US buy oil to Iraq. This is also a violation of the embargo.
Some here suggested also some weapons sold...however, I don't know anything about this.

PS no worries with the comments...the comments on the DNFs taught me one thing...shut my mouth, do my race.

Hopefully the Iraqi's will be free(er)from this type of thing soon. What unimaginable horrors. I don't even like to read about them. We gave peace a chance. For 9 years. Give force a chance.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

My personal opinion about this issue is that the Bush administration acted as international vigilanties (sp) . In this country no one is against putting criminals in jail but we would get pretty upset about someone walking down the street with a machine gun rounding up people he thought had broken the law.
Even the Bush people saw the value of having the international community behind them, why else would they have gone to the Security Council to begin with?

Becasue there may be an element of truth to what you say and this is a free country you can say it. Four weeks ago in Iraq if you had said the same about Saddam you would have been arrested, jailed, interogated, electrocuted, beaten, starved, forced to do unspeakable things. Freedom isn't free, but "Man's thirst for freedom is unquenchable" (Ari Fleischer.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Sorry Francois, I don't think we buy any oil from them, but any oil we have bought has been through the oil for food program. That disastrous program has been overseen by the UN. The same UN that wants to run Iraq. Give me a break. The Iraqis hate the UN. They know it was the UN that propped up Saddam.

We don't smuggle oil through Syria. I will wager that France does though.

The French, on the other hand, sold the latest and greatest air to ground missiles. Yes, the same missile that took out our A10 the other day. The Germans sold new chemical weapons suits. The Russians sold the latest and greatest anti tank missiles that killed at least three of our tanks. All of this is in violation of the same sanctions that they approved.

Now the truth will come out. It will be obvious to all that the reason these three counties opposed the war was to prevent these facts from coming out.

Didn't read the comments on the DNF. I do know that I would be happy to swap my race results for yours.

If you really want to know the truth, you have to go directly to the source:

http://saddamhussein.blogspot.com

Francois, he even had a journal entry with a recent topic of ours in mind!

******
Thursday, February 20, 2003 ::

I do not understand why so many people call me a monster. I am not a monster. I AM A MAN!!!! If you cut me, do I not bleed? If you drop a 5000 pound laser guided smartbomb on me, do I not blow up into a million pieces? If you speak ill of me, do I not feel depressed? I am so misunderstood by the world. Well, MOST of the world. At least the French like me... though maybe not as much as Jerry Lewis.

Saddam "No Nukes" Hussein 4:14 AM

There was no violation of the embargo when the US bought Iraqi oil. There was/is something called the Oil-for-food program.

The Oil-for-Food programme was established by the Security Council on 14 April 1995. Some 3.4 billion barrels of Iraqi oil valued at about $64 billion have been exported under the programme since December 1996. Of this amount, 72 per cent of the total has been allocated towards humanitarian needs nationwide since December 2000 (Yea Right). The balance goes to: Gulf War reparations through a Compensation Fund (25 per cent since December 2000); UN administrative and operational costs for the program (2.2 per cent) and costs for the weapons inspection programme (0.8 per cent) (Now that was a great investment).

Almost $27 billion worth of humanitarian supplies and equipment have been delivered to Iraq under the Oil-for-Food Programme, including $1.6 billion worth of oil industry spare parts and equipment. An additional $10.2 billion worth of supplies are currently in the production and delivery pipeline. The Programme has some $3.1 billion in unencumbered funds and approved contracts worth $5.9 billion that are unfunded. (9 April 2003)

Oh and by the way I am sure we will hear a lot more about how the UN controls the Oil-For-Food program.

i leave for a day and look what happens. guys guys guys the argument over who what, where and why is over. the war is going swimingly and the hard part is about to happen.

it is always harder to build then to destroy. so the subject should be why france, germany and russia should not make a penny off the rebuilding. we do all the bloody work and when things are safe they want to skip in and say 'good job. we'll take it from here.'

so kids let the tourment of the minds begin.

by the way insults are not to be thrown at my wayword brothers francios and andrew. they are under my personal protection and will be treated with respect.

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customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

The CNN article is nothing new, funny thing is that for an reasonably impartial view of regimes and countries around the world you do have to look to "liberal" organizations such as AI and Humanrights watch because as distasteful as they are to the right they do tend to call them with a little more accuracy and impartiality than the main stream media.

China and Tibet are good examples of not getting main stream media attention and atrocities have been commited with little / no coverage.

On a lighter note, if anyone has read the corrections by Franzen, Coalition building and unilateralism are topics covered and reading it at the moment makes it all the more amusing.

my big problem with aministy international and Humanrights watch are they are just bean counters. they are wonderful at saying who does what and when but the minute any move is made to stop what they have recorded they cry and scream and put you on the list. it's like they're affraid if they can't count they will be out of jobs. this point of view is not given to me by 'rgiht wing media sources' i have talked with these guys in country. also they have made the charge we are one of the worlds largest terorist states do to our death penalty*. bunch of wankers.


* as far as exuction goes i take the cowardly stance that while i have no moral objection to putting a child killer to sleep i balk at the thought of a goverment doing that. so i just keep quiet. if it is used good. if not good.

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customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

hey I never said that they were the be all and end all, I just pointed out that unlike the wankers over at CNN and Faux News who simply bend over when SH or some else threatens to take away there permission to report, those 2 organizations do actually say what happens, granted they are at the other end of the spectrum but its not like they cover the nasty sh*t up.

very true. how did fox news cave?

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customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

Hey if Faux news had reporters in there I dont suppose the rules were fundamentally any different for them, and I guarantee that IF fuax news did not have a reporter in there, Murdoch had a S**tload.

fox has reporters with the marines going through baghdad right now.

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customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.