Flip turns? Come on, you aren't even close to being a threat. I don't even NEED flip turns (yet). You're a pretender at best.

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tumble turns should not be avoided. they take about 3 seconds from turning to your first breath. not really too long to hold yr breath.

My flip turns aren't that pretty either, it's a good thing I race in open water. I have heard that they can jump your heartrate but I thinks that is because I'm not very good at them. They got a lot easier when I went to bilateral breathing.

I believe that you should be fully exhaled before your take your next breath. If you don't then you get a half breath and not as much oxygen. I personally blow my air out evenly while my head is under water.

Good luck in your swimming

jaretj

Flip turns make you anaerobic quicker? Not really likely. If you control your breathing, the flip turn should not be all that big of a deal, in fact, it should make life easier to deal with in the pool. Although my brother told me a story about one of the premier female distance swimmers in the 50's "pushing the envelope" by doing flip turns the whole way in a 1650. It was the first time in competition something so crazy was done! Ain't that something? I am not sure who she was, but maybe someone else has heard that story. Control your breathing by not exhaling all of your air in the first second when you start to flip, and all will be just fine.

As for breathing, it is probably best to continue exchange throughout. This is intepreted to mean that you shouldn't hold your breath. You should exhale while your face is in the water, and inhale when you roll to breathe. It may be a 3s:1s ratio, or whatever is comfortable. So long as you don't interrupt your stroke cycle so badly while turning your head to breathe (like taking 3 seconds to inhale, like some of my 6 and unders do). The better you exhale, the more room in the lungs for new air. This is the basis for breath control sets where you work on breathing every 5 or 7 or 9 strokes. You learn not how to struggle to swim with empty lungs 'cause you blew it out in the first second, but how to control the exhalation so that your lungful takes 5 or 7 or 9 strokes to get out.

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"Maybe you should just run faster..." TM

Did you know that air contains 21% oxygen? Probably did know that. Did you know that with each breath, you use only 4 to 5% of the available oxygen? It isn't really that you do or do not get enough oxygen. What breathing is all about is ridding your body of excess carbon dioxide. It's carbon dioxide build-up that makes you want to breathe - makes you ache to breathe.

Aside from that, I never fully exhale, then inhale. I think the reason is I'd draw so hard and if there was a wave and I took on water, it'd get real deep into my lungs. Plus, I think it takes a lot of energy to breath so deep. I try to use as little energy as possible to breathe. I therefore breathe to the right every stroke. I know it's controversial, but it's comfortable for me and I almost always win the swim in my AG.

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Proud member of FISHTWITCH: doing a bit more than fish exercise now.

there is some research that shows the oxygen cost of a flip turn is slightly higher than that of an open turn. But a flip turn is much faster for 98% of the population.

Try swimming a 500 holding your breath as long as possible and you'll find yourself much slower. Just breathe every 2,3,4,5 or whatever makes you happiest.

In the end don't think just swim

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

just gotta hijack the thread!

JM: You mentioned swimming every 5 or 7 or 9 strokes to promote EVEN and CONTROLLED exhaling underwater. Does that also apply to SOMEONE whose NOT gets breatheless with breathing every 3????

I think one of my problems is breathing and I want to correct it.

Any comments will be welcomed.

The lifeguards must love you......seriously flip turns if done correctly & you are in good physical shape you shouldn't be going anerobic due to the turn. It's the off season try not doing flip turns to keep the lifeguards happy & try to learn how to breath on both sides you will enjoy this when race time comes around & the marking buoys are mixed. Learning how to breath on both sides has been so helpful for me.

Smitty

In training I sometimes do 50's where I do groups of 4, breathing 3, 5, 7, 9 by 50 just to work on controlling my breathing, and to get comfortable with getting a bigger breath when I roll to breathe. I found that if I empty my lungs in these "drills" I get more comfortable with taking a deeper breath when I have to. I know that some people have said they don't like taking a full breath when swimming, catching water and messing up timing, and as a result don't do it, but honestly, the more exchange you can promote, the better off you will be. If you sit at the keyboard now, exhale all of the air in your lungs, then try to take the quickest, deepest breath you can, how long did it take? Probably not that much longer than your swimming breath takes. It is not a relaxed passive inhalation, it is quite active. Sure, do it in the pool and you will get sore intercostals, and maybe some cramps to start with. If you practice it, you will get better at it, just like most things, but if you practice not getting a full breath all the time, then doing the deeper breath will be a hard adjustment until you get more familiar with the sensations. Everyone talks about taking the time to learn new and proper technique, well this is one of them, and one that I think is largely ignored. Run with 1/2 a lungful, take small breaths, and hold it in between, and see how smooth and relaxed you are. I have seen many swimmers become incredibly more comfortable in the water, and become more efficient strokewise just because they learned how to breath more correctly and in doing so became more relaxed. The breathing pattern that suits you will be a personal matter. If you breathe 3, breathe 3 for most of your training, but try to get the air out if you want to get fresh air in. If breathing 3 is too long a breathing pattern, and leaves you gasping, maybe look into how much air you are getting with each breath, compare it to what you get if you were running or riding. If you are gulping a little air with each breath, you may be burying yourself. Is that something that can help you? I spend my afternoons and evenings teaching this to HS and AG kids (along with legal back to breast IM turns) and this is a concept that meets with a ton of resistance until they get it, then they suddenly move to a whole new level, especially in longer distance swims, and in the practice itself. They don't go anaerobic as quickly, and they have a better tolerance to repeats. Whenever the workout says "aerobic" they automatically think "breath it all out."

2 beers and I go on and on, sorry.

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"Maybe you should just run faster..." TM

That little breath you get before you push off is not something you will want to give up without a fight. Some open turn people sneak in two little breaths, one right before the push off, then get one after they touch the wall, on the push off. If you take those breaths away, you will not like that. However, I don't think its a given that just because you do flip turns you are faster than somebody of equal speed with an a good open turn. There's a guy I swim with who has a great open turn and goes further than me, compared to my flip turn.

OK, for now I'm still a poser, Aztec, but one of these days I will find the time to stay put in front of the keyboard and we'll have it out, mano y mano, for the swimming futility title.

That aside, thanks to all for much help and love. I agree with 90% of what has been said, and the other 10% made me LOL so it was worth it. I will practice my flip turns (after I learn how to do one) and keep breathing as I have been (the bilateral sucking in of water). There's still the issue of, as my friends put it, "rowing with the wrong ends of the oars." That's for another post...

My best move in the pool so far has been to swim laps at noon, so my only company is blue-hairs with flotation belts...that way I only get lapped every once in a while...

Properly executed flip turns will NOT make you feel gassed, but if you're a rookie or a slow swimmer, your flips are probablly funky. Work on them.

Exhale completely before breathing, but whether to "trickle" breathe or not depends on pacing and breathing rate. If you're breathing every second or third stroke, trickle breathe, if you're going four or more, hold then start breathing out in time to comfortably complete a full exhale before you breathe in again.

It also depends on the distance. In competition, I don't breathe on a 50, and don't breathe for the first 25 of a 100. Breathing slows you somewhat. Try breathing less often, to the point of hypoxic discomfort. Try swimming 5-10X25 without breathing and 20-30 seconds of rest. Hypoxia does the same thing for you as altitude training or EPO.

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Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...

I just breathe naturally, just as if I was jogging, with no extra effort.

Last fall I did what JM suggests and it took my swimming to the next level, the deeper breath I took the better I swam, even with my masters group with 7 other swimmers in my lane. The big change came when I got comfortable with bilateral breathing. I went from struggling to swim 100's on 2:00 to swimming most workouts in the low 1:40's.

jaretj

Flip Turns are exhausting when you do not how to do them properly and practice them infrequently. They are a skill which when mastered become effortless just like any other skill. If you are swimming in a pool do what competitive swimmers do - learn a flip turn and do it often!

A note on hypoxic breathing: Doc Counsilman did some experimenting breath holding the early 1970s to see if he could simulate altitude training at sea level. It made headlines and every coach started restricting their swimmers' intake of air. Two years later he abandoned the practice because he discovered two things: holding your breath builds up venous blood pressure and he swimmers swam slower because their main concern was getting air.

Swimming is an aerobic activity meaning YOU NEED TO BREATHE. Would you hold your breath on a run or long bike ride?

I use restricted breathing to work on technique. Sometimes I do not want my swimmers to move their heads at all just look at their hands as they move forward. A center snorkel serves the same purpose.

Turning your head does not increase body rotation. Swimming correctly does. Think of a skier going down a run. The expert ones plant their poles and rotate their hips. The neophytes through their heads and shoulders to traverse.

Question, question, question. Do not accept truths blindly.

Doug Stern

Thank you, thank you and thank you again!
Finally, someone I can agree with on breathing while swimming.

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Proud member of FISHTWITCH: doing a bit more than fish exercise now.

i think flip turns are what f#$%^& up my back this fall, aggravated an inflamed disk and gave me some nasty a## leg pain. no mas for moi.

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don't just do something..... sit there

I agree with Doug big time.

Breath. The biggest problems that new swimmers encounter is that they seem to want to hold their breath for as long as possible, then they have to lift their head up to breath big gulps, or roll on their side to do the same operation.

Flip turns? You want to get fast? Do them. I routinely clean the clocks of the guys who do open turns. The longer the distance, the more I beat them.

Practice doing turns by swimming 5 strokes, then drive the head down, look between your legs (and don't stop looking), and bring the heels to your butt.

If you try 'tucking' you will most likely be bringing your knees to your chest, which will effectively stop you dead in the water.

Yes there is a difference.

Tuck your head/chin down, let the body roll over, and at the same time try and keep the head as close to your thighs as possible.....your feet will naturally snap behind you and hit the wall.

But back to the drill.....5 strokes, flip...5 strokes....flip.

When turning you will exhale small quantities of air. This is natural.

Oh...and if you do start doing turns at the wall? Leave on your back. The next biggest error that swimmers make is that they try to straighten out their bodies (go from their back, turn onto tummy, then push) before pushing off....which will really make you want to lunge up for more air as fast as possible.

Leave the wall on your back...and let your body slowly rotate (use hips and head) back onto your side, then take a stroke with the arm closest to the bottom.

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Debi Bernardes

Owner, UCANDOIT Coaching Group, LLC

That's why I like backstroke... breathing is not an issue.

Doug, do you think I can go a :53 in the 100 back in a couple of weeks at Senior Mets? That's my plan.

DebbiB,

You are obviously a swimmer. Very good description of the turn!

Doug Stern

David,

If you think you can do it - it is done. I am going to Curacao and then Buenos Aires. I will see you at the AC in Feb.

Doug

Doug, thanks for the encouragement... and have a great time. See you next month.

DP

Do you mean to do a complete summersalt or just a half and then go back the way you came?

jaretj

do a summersault on the floor, and instead of landing on your feet - land flat on your back. That is the position you want to be as you leave the wall (with legs bent of course).

To work on turn speed:

'Ta-Da' Turns: Swim until you see the 'T' at the BOTTOM of the pool, using your last stroke as you approach, turn really quick and finish by standing up as quickly as possible. IF you want to make it fun, yell out "Ta-Da!"

Some swimmers are afraid of the wall so they usually don't go into a turn fast. This helps them to overcome the fear, and to also swim fast and flip fast.

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Debi Bernardes

Owner, UCANDOIT Coaching Group, LLC

What I meant was while doing your drill in the pool.

5 strokes, flip...5 strokes....flip

Do you do a complete summersault after the 5 strokes so you keep going in the same direction or just a half and swim back to the direction that you came from?

Thanks

jaretj