I noticed that more and more bike companies are going to either "integrated seat masts" or frame specific seat posts, both in an aero design. The integrated or cut to fit seat mast seems to me to be about the worst idea I have ever seen on a bike. It is a limitation of how much the bike can be adjusted to fit and even if done perfectly for the original owner (and they never change their seat height) it will be a limitation when the bike is resold. The frame specific seat post is better but not by much. What if you need a replacement? I will admit that both look really hot and aero. Not being anywhere close to knowing anything about aerodynamics I can not offer proof but I can not believe that the most aero dynamic post would save any time over a round post. The post is shielded by the body and is in the turbulence of the legs. I know some insiders in the bicycle industry post on here so if there are any good reasons, other than looks and selling more bikes (which is not a bad thing) I would like to know...
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Re: pure marketing... [bryin]
[ In reply to ]
"The integrated or cut to fit seat mast seems to me to be about the worst idea I have ever seen on a bike"
The marketing boys telll us they are more aero and save weight, but the truth is how do you say "gimmick".
I believe John Cobb tested aero seat tubes on round tube bikes a couple of times and came to confusing conclusions. The first time he said they don't work and the second time he said they only work on some people.
The marketing boys telll us they are more aero and save weight, but the truth is how do you say "gimmick".
I believe John Cobb tested aero seat tubes on round tube bikes a couple of times and came to confusing conclusions. The first time he said they don't work and the second time he said they only work on some people.
Re: pure marketing... [bryin]
[ In reply to ]
The other issue wich you don't touch on and will prove to be a significant challenge to people who buy the bikes with the extended seat post masts, is fitting them in a standard bike travel box. That's if they travel to races by plane. Obviously, not an issue if you stick close to home.
Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
Re: pure marketing... [bryin]
[ In reply to ]
"The integrated or cut to fit seat mast seems to me to be about the worst idea I have ever seen on a bike"
That says it all pretty well.
Ric
That says it all pretty well.
Ric
Re: pure marketing... [bryin]
[ In reply to ]
Any adjustable part on a bike frame is going to allow flex, small as it may be. An integrated seatpost is going to make for a stiffer and more responsive ride -- more of the rider's power is going toward moving the bike forward.
Re: pure marketing... [Aerohead]
[ In reply to ]
totally.
thats why i use cranksets forged out of a single sheet of carbon fiber, because the adjustment possibilities for the chainrings simply rob my races of energy. likewise, i prefer to use a single piece carbon handlebar set to avoid energy loss caused by being able to set the aerobars to the correct length. and that whole variable pedal release force mechanism? a total energy thief! i bolt my shoes to the pedals and then weld them in place. these days i've been eyeing chain tension as another variable parameter that needs to be axed, but i haven't found a direct drive mechanism for a bicycle yet.
thats why i use cranksets forged out of a single sheet of carbon fiber, because the adjustment possibilities for the chainrings simply rob my races of energy. likewise, i prefer to use a single piece carbon handlebar set to avoid energy loss caused by being able to set the aerobars to the correct length. and that whole variable pedal release force mechanism? a total energy thief! i bolt my shoes to the pedals and then weld them in place. these days i've been eyeing chain tension as another variable parameter that needs to be axed, but i haven't found a direct drive mechanism for a bicycle yet.
Re: pure marketing... [dawhead]
[ In reply to ]
I've seen people here buy into worse marketing gimmicks. I look at it this way, every year the bike companies spend millions on R&D and even more in marketing; 99% of it is pure fluff and customer eat up 50% of the 99%. But in the end bicycles had come a long way over the last ten years. So we all benefit in the long run.
BTW, my bike doesn't have an integrated seat post.
BTW, my bike doesn't have an integrated seat post.
Re: pure marketing... [Aerohead]
[ In reply to ]
the difference between a marketing "gimmick" and a "strategy" depends upon which side of the fence you sit :-)
For consumers it could be a gimmick, and thus reduces their choices for seat post options. From the business side, frame specific seat posts are just a smart business strategy to keep consumers buying your products. I don't really understand the seat masts that must be cut (because even if you never want to change it for another post, people will still need some adjustability depending on time of year, how long they have a bike, any loss of flexibility, all sorts of issues), but the frame specific posts will keep people buying from the same company (or one of their subsidiaries).
It would be interesting to see if a component company ever goes into the market of designing parts specifically for certain bikes. I'm sure that is a very low volume market (although for some reason, I've always thought that a KM40 or Profoil from Kestrel just has something missing where the frame and seatpost meet, and possibly a matching seatpost to continue those beautiful curves would fix that aesthetic issue).
Craig Preston - President / Preston Presentations
Saving the world with more professional, powerful, and persuasive presentations - one audience at a time.
For consumers it could be a gimmick, and thus reduces their choices for seat post options. From the business side, frame specific seat posts are just a smart business strategy to keep consumers buying your products. I don't really understand the seat masts that must be cut (because even if you never want to change it for another post, people will still need some adjustability depending on time of year, how long they have a bike, any loss of flexibility, all sorts of issues), but the frame specific posts will keep people buying from the same company (or one of their subsidiaries).
It would be interesting to see if a component company ever goes into the market of designing parts specifically for certain bikes. I'm sure that is a very low volume market (although for some reason, I've always thought that a KM40 or Profoil from Kestrel just has something missing where the frame and seatpost meet, and possibly a matching seatpost to continue those beautiful curves would fix that aesthetic issue).
Craig Preston - President / Preston Presentations
Saving the world with more professional, powerful, and persuasive presentations - one audience at a time.
Re: pure marketing... [Craigster]
[ In reply to ]
You adjust your seat post for different times of the year? I think this belongs in the quirk post.
Re: pure marketing... [Aerohead]
[ In reply to ]
Integrated = stiffer frame and lighter set-up.
If you are buying a frame that has one, then you probably (should be) are pretty damn well measured. There is still some flexibility in height and definitely in fore/aft.
Believe what you want, but don't belittle it for no reason other than to be controversial. I would think that bike companies spend a hell of a lot more time and money on R&D for their products than the average ST poster does, so maybe they know something we don't????
_____________________________________________
Rick, "Retired" hobbyist athlete
Trying to come back slowly from acute A-Fib
If you are buying a frame that has one, then you probably (should be) are pretty damn well measured. There is still some flexibility in height and definitely in fore/aft.
Believe what you want, but don't belittle it for no reason other than to be controversial. I would think that bike companies spend a hell of a lot more time and money on R&D for their products than the average ST poster does, so maybe they know something we don't????
_____________________________________________
Rick, "Retired" hobbyist athlete
Trying to come back slowly from acute A-Fib
Re: pure marketing... [Aerohead]
[ In reply to ]
I absolutely adjust my seatpost depending upon the time of the year. In the winter when I gain 10 pounds, and I'm less flexible (training volume is lower), this affects my reach and subsequently my comfort on a bike. I would guess the location of my seatpost probably changes 2-3 times per year (albeit by very small increments). Oh, and since college (82-86), I have never had one cycling injury due to stress changes from changing a seat post (technically, I don't think I've ever had a cycling injury other than when I snapped a crank in a sprint which is the only time I've ever hit pavement in 20+ years of riding).
Craig Preston - President / Preston Presentations
Saving the world with more professional, powerful, and persuasive presentations - one audience at a time.
Craig Preston - President / Preston Presentations
Saving the world with more professional, powerful, and persuasive presentations - one audience at a time.
Re: pure marketing... [Daremo]
[ In reply to ]
"I would think that bike companies spend a hell of a lot more time and money on R&D for their products than the average ST poster does, so maybe they know something we don't???? "
- In many case you are correct, but I wouldn't bet anyone life on it (that bike companies do more R&D). If you know how many frames/components were drawn out on a napkin at a tradeshow and ultimately showed up on the bike shop floors the following summer (simply based on that drawing and some simple testing), it might scare you :-)
Craig Preston - President / Preston Presentations
Saving the world with more professional, powerful, and persuasive presentations - one audience at a time.
- In many case you are correct, but I wouldn't bet anyone life on it (that bike companies do more R&D). If you know how many frames/components were drawn out on a napkin at a tradeshow and ultimately showed up on the bike shop floors the following summer (simply based on that drawing and some simple testing), it might scare you :-)
Craig Preston - President / Preston Presentations
Saving the world with more professional, powerful, and persuasive presentations - one audience at a time.
Re: pure marketing... [Craigster]
[ In reply to ]
I guess this makes sense. Personally, I don't hibernate for the winter so I don't ever fluctuate 10/20 lbs and I try to stay flexible :)
I think there is a trend in corporate America to lump marketing innovations in with R&D. As far as true R&D, I agree with you that bike companies probably spend very little. I'm sure there are very employees at Cervelo walking around in lab coats. Look at all the new 2007 frames showcased on ST recently; it is all about keeping up with the trends and building an appealing product. Sex sales and for us bike nerds, an all carbon frame with nice graphics and clean lines is pure sex.
I think there is a trend in corporate America to lump marketing innovations in with R&D. As far as true R&D, I agree with you that bike companies probably spend very little. I'm sure there are very employees at Cervelo walking around in lab coats. Look at all the new 2007 frames showcased on ST recently; it is all about keeping up with the trends and building an appealing product. Sex sales and for us bike nerds, an all carbon frame with nice graphics and clean lines is pure sex.
Re: pure marketing... [Aerohead]
[ In reply to ]
I would have thought that an additional, internal tube of material would actually make the frame/seat tube stiffer, while the dimensions of the typical seat post would make it stiffer than a tube "mast"...might be a "push", depending on the layup or stiffness of the seat tube (i.e. both methods are adequate), but certainly when you sleeve things they get stiffer. I always thought that the seat post could be an unsupported, high force area so that is why separate seatposts appear to be stonger/stiffer than bikes' frames.
Re: pure marketing... [Aerohead]
[ In reply to ]
Have they? Some bikes have but mostly it's just a raising of the general level to match the trend setters of the time.
If we look at road bikes there has been no useful innovation - a good brand 10 years ago gave you a nicely balanced frame, the parts worked perfectly (and were more durable than now) and the overall performance of the bike was equivalent to anything currently available. Being able to build an unusable 4kg bike is not progress, nor is being able to build a carbon bike so stiff that you can only use it on macadam.
On the tri bike side there has been some progress - aerobar options are much better but even the best are only the same as the visiontechs of the time. Wheels haven't really changed though carbon wheels have gotten a bit more reliable. Lots more saddles. Geometry hasn't improved - a few more brands have copied QR which gives more options. All we've really got is funky tube shapes through the use of carbon.
External bbs are a sideways step, so is 10spd shifting.
Being able to get every component conceivable in carbon is not an improvement.
Mostly what we have is more options, more brands clamouring for attention offering the same thing you could get 10years ago but with a better paintjob
Re: pure marketing... [cyclenutnz]
[ In reply to ]
I have a ten year old top brand bike that I couldn't pedal over 20mph for more than about 5 minutes. There is no way you'd get me to ride it for 100 miles or more.
Re: pure marketing... [cyclenutnz]
[ In reply to ]
I guess I'll disagree that no major innovation has occured. The advancement in carbon technology (and making stronger, yet stiffer, yet more compliant, all of this AND more aerodynamic) is HUGE and is one reason companies are clammering for composite engineers (I see SACHS is now looking for one in their San Luis Obispo facility). I would have a difficult time saying any road bike of 10 years ago performs similarly to a Giant, Trek, or Cervelo carbon frame.
Craig Preston - President / Preston Presentations
Saving the world with more professional, powerful, and persuasive presentations - one audience at a time.
Craig Preston - President / Preston Presentations
Saving the world with more professional, powerful, and persuasive presentations - one audience at a time.
Re: pure marketing... [Aerohead]
[ In reply to ]
I have a ten year old top brand bike that I couldn't pedal over 20mph for more than about 5 minutes. There is no way you'd get me to ride it for 100 miles or more.[/reply]
So your bike has come a long way, that doesnt reflect the industry as a whole. And either your bike wasn't as top end as the salesman said or they didn't set it up right. The bike I had 10 years ago would happily go 25mph for up to an hour despite me being 16 - individual speed isn't really relevant to the discussion.
My current road bike is a 2001 model frame and the next frame I add to the stable will use technology that was available in 1990. The tri bike after the next one will be a copy of 1992 technology because everything done since then has been trying to catch up with the leaders of the time.
So your bike has come a long way, that doesnt reflect the industry as a whole. And either your bike wasn't as top end as the salesman said or they didn't set it up right. The bike I had 10 years ago would happily go 25mph for up to an hour despite me being 16 - individual speed isn't really relevant to the discussion.
My current road bike is a 2001 model frame and the next frame I add to the stable will use technology that was available in 1990. The tri bike after the next one will be a copy of 1992 technology because everything done since then has been trying to catch up with the leaders of the time.
Re: pure marketing... [Craigster]
[ In reply to ]
I agree that there has been massive technological innovation. I just think that the advance in overall performance has been incremental - no matter how clever the design is. I do like having stiff, strong, light carbon forks and I do like the fact that there are more than a couple of brands whose products you can trust. And it is much easier to find a decent tri bike these days which is a huge plus.
I agree that the changes have overall been positive but for someone who was technically savvy amd fit 10 years ago I doubt that they've had massive leaps in speed.
that is not always correct, the clamp cannot allow any kinetic movement as its kinetic coefficient of friction is not enough to keep it in place.