The fact that NP is only 8 watts different than Avg power shows that very few if any matches were burned. That is a very consistent effort for hilly course.

In my opinion it is always faster to ride a TT with a smooth effort. The only reason to burn a match is to stay in contact with your competition and only if that keeps you in contention for a win or qualifying spot. Other factors are can you run people down?

The bigger your base the better you can recover from hard efforts. So take that into account as well.

To give some numbers as reference.
My FTP is around 320. Sprint Tri watts are 310, Olympic 305, Half IM 270 Full IM 240. In al cases I try to ride Np with in 10 watts of Avg 5 watts is better. I let plenty of people go on hills but roll them up on flats and rollers.

Typically this style of riding will place me in the top 5 bike splits locally and to 80 over all at IM, my best placing was top 27 at IM CDA (fairly hill IM course).

Since your question is about 8watts and weather or not to ride them on a flat course. You have to be the judge. The nice thing is your HR will stabilize and you will know if the effort is too high or just right. I would practice the pace for 45min to and hour stretch on flat course or trainer and see what happens to HR at Race pace.

Thank you for the response.

I did try to limit the match burning, but not that much. I went into that session tired from the day before. So I wasn't exactly sure what to expect. But I was pretty happy with the result. I also want to better understand pacing in general as well as power vs. norm power etc.

Our power numbers are almost exactly the same with one little glitch in mine.
I tested my FTP a couple months ago at 320. That was on a CT also with a Quarq. Both were similar. I'm a touch under 200 lbs.

However I did a sprint race and only held 290. I was upset by that. Quickly realized I had made a mistake in training...on the trainer I never rode aero. It was uncomfortable due to a setup problem. So in my races I wasn't able to sustain the power I wanted in the aero tuck. Stupid me. (I was sitting up really straight on the trainer.)

I trained to correct that problem and rode tons in aero tuck...two weeks ago did a flat course at 290 watts and still ran well despite spraining my knee during the swim start. (Ran 7:10's on a flat course). So I saw some improvement. I've since seen more improvement while aero. Due to this little error on my part I shifted my race(aero) FTP down by 5-10 watts to be safe.

I've trained all off season and am in great shape. However due to a couple health issues I've not gotten in as many long rides as I'd wanted. So I just don't have the confidence to really push the 1/2 iron pace. But I have gotten in 3 or 4 longer rides with a number of longer runs. But now I am thinking 240 watts is a little on the light side as it is at the very bottom of zone 3.
Perhaps it is just a confidence thing. I did a 1/2 iron about 7 years ago and almost died. I had no idea what I was doing...took in very little fluids/nutrition and it was 100 degrees. Very stupid. Now I have a mental block. haha

I chose 240 watts because I know I can sustain that and still run. I was able to prove that to myself on Sunday. Part of me thinks I should be happy with that and stick to it...another part thinks I should consider bumping the wattage up a little bit because I'll be more rested and the course is easier. And then there is the part that says 10 watts will only gain me about 3 minutes and could cost 10 on the run.

I don't think I'll change my plan for this race. But I am curious to see what "confident" and properly prepared racers hold for wattages on in a 1/2 iron.

Thanks again

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I suppose we would need your definition of hilly.

With that said, your NP was 248 watts and your average power was 240. That tells me that most likely you did not blast going up hills compared to the flats. IMO that is pretty good pacing strategy.

If you rode a flat HIM course with a NP of 248 I would expect the run would go nearly as well as in the hilly course but you would probably be off the bike sooner on the flat course. That would lead to having a little bit less TSS on you for the same effort because the effort would be shorter.

Because the effort is shorter you may be able to go slightly harder on the flat course to accumulate the same stress. That really depends on the difference in ride time between the two. To me that is really splitting hairs though and I would target the 248 NP in a race sim to see how I felt. I may go as far as bringing up the power 10 watts but that would be my limit for testing.

My race strategy for flat courses is to sit on my prescribed power as smoothly as I can untill approx mile 45. At that point I will make a decision as to pick up the pace or keep it the same.

My $.02...hope this helps

jaretj

After seeing the last post, personally I would target ~260-270 and see how I felt at mile 45.

You know yourself better that we do so take that suggestion with a grain of salt.

jaretj

AP is the directly measured ave power, that is, it could be from one massive effort over 5 seconds and very low for the rest of the time, or could be completely flat at that exact number, AP doesn't care. NP takes in to account the manner in which that ave power was achieved and indicates the resultant stress on your body.

So, in effect, with your first ride, according to theory, your body thinks that it did ride 248W, so actually riding AP of 248W (as long as VI is 1) shouldn't be any different.

That type of talk is just dangerous. :-)

But you are getting at my core questions regarding pacing. When you look at FTP and zones, realistically I should be able to hold a pace higher than upper zone 2. And I probably can. Like I said, this may just be a confidence thing. It is tough for me to tell because I didn't get the specific race prep I wanted. (The race is Sunday...no more testing.)

So I am trying to make a reasonable decision based on that test result...and I am trying to be somewhat safe as I want to finish the race strong. 240-250 watts should put me near 21-22mph depending on conditions. I should be able to hold 8:15's (possibly faster) for the run. In fact, I might be able to go considerably faster. I want to start at that pace and pick it up. I did a flat OLY at 7:10's. My swim is fast...so I should be able to finish up under 5 hours. However I'd love to break 4:45. The confidence for that isn't quite there due to the lack of real race preparation.

As far as the duration is concerned, that is also a good point. My training ride was 63 miles and took 3:15. Racine is a fast course and will probably take 2:30 - 2:45 depending on conditions and my pace. So the stress factor would be down a notch due to that. So that may warrant a slight bump in power.

My primary goal is to finish strong...no walking. To that end it is probably safer to target an easier goal (250) for the first half of the ride and see how I feel, right? And if I am feeling strong at mile 35 or so, I can always bump that to 255 or 260 for a while and see how it feels. That would put me into the middle of zone 3. I could even drop down to 240 if I am not feeling good.

I think temperature will play a big role. When I started the training ride on Sunday it was about 75 and quickly jumped to 85 and humid. The run was in 85 with no shade. So if it is cooler, I may be quite a bit stronger.

I'm just being a girl because last time I did a 1/2 iron I practically died. It was 7 years ago, I was stupid and had no plan of any kind. it was 100 degrees...I've never done one since.

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With a FTP of 320, if you sit on 240 to 250 at Racine you will set yourself up for a very good run. There is a bit of shade on that run course.

There are two bumps at the begining of the run that you should control yourself through, then it's just barely uphill to the turn around and slightly downhill on the way back. After that you do it again.

You will have a good tiime :)

Good luck

jaretj

Have you retested for your FTP in the aero position? Lowering your FTP 5-10W from a FTP would not be on the safe side in many cases. Unless you are doing a majority of your rides in the aero position, and able to hold it for 3-4 hours without any problems people see upwards of 10% reduction in power while in the aerobars. You said "on the trainer I never rode aero"... what about on the road? What is your comfort level on the road in the aerobars, how long can you ride in the aerobars without getting out, and how long have you been consistently training in the aerobars on the road? I think more important than what wattage to hold +- 5W is going to be your ability to ride in the aerobars for the entire race. Maybe I am wrong though. You have posted some decent results in other races, were you able to stay in the aerobars the entire race?

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Something you should keep in mind is the way which NP is calculated. You can have a variable effort strategy on rolling courses and still have a VI of 1.00 to 1.02. The reason for this stems from how NP is calculated.

NP takes rolling 30 second averages and gives greater weight to the really high numbers, since it takes each number to the 4th power.

When I do a TT, I make sure to give more watts uphill than on flats, and more on flats than downhill. However, everything is iso-power within the context of 30 second rolling averages.

In Fitchburg a few weeks ago I averaged 378, and NP was only 383. I say "only" because it wasn't an even effort. The course is net downhill on the way out and net uphill on the way back. I made sure to really roll the hills rollers nice and fast. Going out was 365 and coming back was 401. You might think that would give a higher VI, but it doesn't. The reason for this is it is still very much an iso-power effort in the context of 30 second rolling averages.

Here is what I don't know. I have no clue how well one would run off a pacing strategy which is optimal for TTing where you try to maintain speed (as much as possible) over the rollers. When looking at the power file from that race, I see periods of a minute when I am going slower and the AP for that 60 seconds might be 420. The next minute, down a roller, the AP might be 365. Overall, VI ends up being very, very low, but the pacing was still variable. I'm not sure how that effects running legs.

I have been thinking for a while WKO needs to have another variability calculation with a much shorter sampling period where you can determine how well you are maintaining the same power output. I would imagine all these 'microaccelerations' might take a toll on you but what do I know, maybe not?

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Up until May I did very little outdoor riding, and zero aero work.
In May I started going outside more, and that included more aero riding. I didn't have the power meter then. Only the CT indoors. I got the quarq, but didn't really focus on power in aero vs. power sitting up. I was still learning how to use it.

I had a sprint in early June, hit 290 watts and was aero the whole way. I really thought I should be higher, and started to look into why. Being aero was #1 on my list...and I confirmed that on the trainer that week when I tried intervals and couldn't hold them. From that point on I trained with a big focus on being aero. Every ride, indoor, outdoor, interval, recover. All aero, all the time. And I put a focus on harder efforts on the trainer.

Fast forward 3 weeks and I did a flat Oly race. Averaged 23.3mph or so, I think my watts were 292 with np being higher. It was slightly over an hour and I was aero the entire time except for a couple turns and hills where I was out of the saddle.

I've done several longer rides in that time, over 3 hours, in which the vast majority was aero. In fact, most of my outdoor riding is as aero as possible, the problem is the intervals and harder efforts. I don't have a lot of places to go outside due to construction.

So while I have not specifically retested my FTP due to scheduling issues, I think it is pretty safe to say that I could hold 310 or above even while aero. I've been able to do 5 minute intervals at 345 outside...so I think the muscles are adapting to the position without trouble. And I held this position all last year for IMWI too. Being aero isn't foreign to me, it was just a stupid training mistake because my risor was in a bad position and my kibbles and bits were falling asleep.

Edit:
I forgot to add...
I think you make a very valid point in that a lot of people naturally lose some power by going aero. And while I suspect I will lose a little power, (5-10 watts) based on the riding I've done my wattage shouldn't be that bad.

The ride I did on Sunday was as aero as I could make it. Obviously due to stop signs, lights, and feeding I came out of aero on occassion. But I held that wattage and was aero almost the entire way. So the 240 average power was quite aero with some exceptions. I rode all alone, so there was not time sitting up and bs'ing.

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[replyI did a flat Oly race. Averaged 23.3mph or so, I think my watts were 292 with np being higher. It was slightly over an hour and I was aero the entire time except for a couple turns and hills where I was out of the saddle.[/reply]
Maybe time to post a position pic for us to tear apart. Even at 200lbs, you should be faster than that on 292 watts.

Maybe time to post a position pic for us to tear apart. Even at 200lbs, you should be faster than that on 292 watts.[/reply]


I've been thinking about that...but I'm scared.
I've seen what you guys do to other people.

:-)

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On short notice here's the best I can do.....

http://www.brightroom.com/...p;LNSEARCH=1&PWD=

I don't want to steal their pics and try to post directly.

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Off the cuff...

Your torso is pretty high.

Your head is very high.

Your shoulders are fairly wide.

My eyeball wind tunnel tells me you are giving up a lot of speed right now IF it is physically possible for you to get lower of head, flatter of back and narrower of shoulders. Any one would help, all three would be great.

A $200 bike fit would likely save you 3-5 minutes in a OD race. How much time do those $$$$ Heds save you?

Edit to add- That bike fit would probably help get you under 5:00 at Racine.

theyre clearly hed stingers :P

but totally agree, the OP is pretty big dude with a barn door like position.

How do I narrow my shoulders, cut off an arm? Wouldn't that hurt my swim time? :-0

I am a bigger guy...6'2 200 lbs. I swam in college, so my shoulders are fairly wide.
The fit I have now is a comfort fit from 2.5 years ago when I was 255lbs. I won the bike and had not ridden in a long time, so it wasn't aggressive. I then used it for Ironman. As I've gotten faster and more aggressive with racing, I guess I didn't get a more aggressive fit. I have made minor adjustments on my own, but not much more than that.

It's too late for Sundays race, but I think I can invest in a better fit once it is over.
5 minutes over 26 miles? Really? That's practically 2mph.

For the record, they aren't zips. They are USED Hed stingers with a wheel cover on the rear. :-)

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narrow your aerobars/arm rest pads until you feel it getting in the way of your breathing then back off a bit. or so that your thumb knuckles touch.

tilting the bars up could ease ducking your head.

then you can start the process of dropping one cm, spend some time adjusting, then drop more.

What are you guys talking about?? I said HED! Look it's right up there ^^^

Barn door? Funny you say that, I live in farm country.

Every once in a while I sit up straight, open my arms up wide and start yelling..."I'm the king of the world!!!" i like to do that as I fly through aid stations.

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Let me ask this question then...

From what I can tell my position with regards to power output is good.
At what point will these changes potentially impact that?

I suspect narrowing the pads and angling the aero bars up a bit won't cause a problem. But I suspect getting lower (ie reversing the stem and/or changing spacers) very well could.

I'm willing to change the pads and bars this week prior to the race. A bit less willing to start dropping my position right before Racine. Both due to power output changes as well as the potential for a problem holding that position in a 56 mile race.

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You should have a shop you trust assess your position. Aero is not the end all. Being a bigger guy flexibility and comfort are very important. I think a lot of A.G's give up too much power in search of Aero...made that mistake my self more than once.

As to power numbers, Zones are a guide, just because a book or some person asserts that zone 2 is good for IM racing doesn't necessarily make true for you. example; when I started racing my FTP was with in a few watts of it's current status but I was not strong enough to hold as large a percentage of FTP as I am now. Part of the reason is miles accumulated over time. in my first few seasons my annual mileage was around 4000 per now I hold between 8-10,000 per year. I'm not advocating this, just giving my experience. With more miles I am able to hold more watts with less damage to my run.

Don't for get to look at your HR while training and racing. It is still a very good indicator of work. Another is your brain! Listen to your body and be honest. If it feels hard. it is.

You sounds as if you have a feel for how you want to race. I would stick to your plan...you know yourself better than any of us.

Good luck at your race !

you better hope nobody else reads this because apparently your 1 minute power should correlate to your 300min power irregardless of the miles you've ridden

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Not sure I get you point? FTP was tested at that time with Blood lactate test as well as 20min TT, Did not do a lot of long distance or steady state work at that time. My Max HR was and is still the same as well.

In My first IM I was only able to hold 138bpm at 215 watts now I can hold 248 at 150bpm and have a couple trips to kona along the way. Not sure where my 1min power comes in?

What I am saying is...since I ride more my base is bigger and there for my work load is greater and that gives me the ability to hold more watts longer.