So the ceramicspeed pulleys cost an awful lot of money for the upgrade but look pretty cool and have some loyal followers. Do they have some kind of patent on making the oversize pulleys? Why wouldn't Shimano just make larger diameter pulley systems an option like medium vs. short cage derailleurs if there is an improvement in performance?
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Re: oversize pulleys? [Allan]
[ In reply to ]
If you search 'oversized pulley' on eBay, you will see J&L, DIGIRIT, KCNC and ASSASSIN pulleys. I asked around, but didn't get solid answer about the performance, so I didn't go for it. I'm curious about other people's experience with shifting, performance and whatnot.
Re: oversize pulleys? [Allan]
[ In reply to ]
Allan wrote:
Why wouldn't Shimano just make larger diameter pulley systemsThe mildly bemusing aesthetics of large pulleys have a catastrophic detrimental effect on bicycle speed. That's why Shimano only offers oversized pulleys on cheap low-performance products like the Altus M310.
Re: oversize pulleys? [Allan]
[ In reply to ]
Don’t buy Ceramic Speed. Get the SLF Motion pulleys. https://www.slfmotion.com
Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/
Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/
Re: oversize pulleys? [Allan]
[ In reply to ]
suspect the larger diameter pulleys don't help much, what helps and costs all that money, is the ceramic bearings..
Likely power savings about 2w at best, over a good quality Shimano pulley system using bearings, and quite possibly less than 2w.
Afaik no public studies on wind resistance effects from larger pulleys, I'd expect something.
The company does assert,
With relation to Aero loss, unfortunately due to confidentiality restraints on the testing partner we have used, I can't say where, when and what runs were done. I can confirm the system has been in two separate tunnels, Scandinavia and North America. No aero loss has been recorded on the system.
A hae ma doots..
The fact that Shimano, SRAM etc don't have any large-pulley systems, suggests to me that the advantages are really minimal.. there are quite a number of aftermarket large pulleys, so no patent clearly.
Likely power savings about 2w at best, over a good quality Shimano pulley system using bearings, and quite possibly less than 2w.
Afaik no public studies on wind resistance effects from larger pulleys, I'd expect something.
The company does assert,
With relation to Aero loss, unfortunately due to confidentiality restraints on the testing partner we have used, I can't say where, when and what runs were done. I can confirm the system has been in two separate tunnels, Scandinavia and North America. No aero loss has been recorded on the system.
A hae ma doots..
The fact that Shimano, SRAM etc don't have any large-pulley systems, suggests to me that the advantages are really minimal.. there are quite a number of aftermarket large pulleys, so no patent clearly.
Re: oversize pulleys? [BryanD]
[ In reply to ]
BryanD wrote:
Don’t buy Ceramic Speed. Get the SLF Motion pulleys. https://www.slfmotion.comwhy? it's nearly the same cost as Ceramicspeed without the reputable brand behind it.
there are other brands 1/4 the price, but I've always been skeptical. i'm redoing my drivetrain and have always wondered if these have any merit or are they just expensive fidget spinners. i don't think i could spend $500 for one, but i might throw $100 into the fire. if all else, they make for a neat looking setup.
Re: oversize pulleys? [casper3043]
[ In reply to ]
casper3043 wrote:
BryanD wrote:
Don’t buy Ceramic Speed. Get the SLF Motion pulleys. https://www.slfmotion.comwhy? it's nearly the same cost as Ceramicspeed without the reputable brand behind it.
there are other brands 1/4 the price, but I've always been skeptical. i'm redoing my drivetrain and have always wondered if these have any merit or are they just expensive fidget spinners. i don't think i could spend $500 for one, but i might throw $100 into the fire. if all else, they make for a neat looking setup.
I don't own SLF, and actually own a set of Ceramicspeed, and if I did it again I'd buy SLF. Having seen them, they look much better quality. I was actually surprised how cheap the Ceramicspeed feel. I'd feel much better with the aluminum cage over the plastic CS comes with having heard stories of the CS snapping. As for speed, I didn't notice anything, but they do look cool at least.
Re: oversize pulleys? [casper3043]
[ In reply to ]
casper3043 wrote:
BryanD wrote:
Don’t buy Ceramic Speed. Get the SLF Motion pulleys. https://www.slfmotion.comwhy? it's nearly the same cost as Ceramicspeed without the reputable brand behind it.
I can't even count on two hands how many times I've heard about CS oversized pulley cages snapping, sometimes causing the rider to crash, at least once causing the rider to crash and have a hospital bill associated with the crash.
Re: oversize pulleys? [rjrankin]
[ In reply to ]
I had a Ceramic speed PLASTIC cage shatter on me riding a rough section of road, chain bounced off during a gear change and half my derailleur was gone... I have Digirit cages from eBay now on my tri bike and road bike with aluminium cages and they change flawlessly at a fraction of the cost of SLF or Ceramicspeed with the security they won't shatter...
Re: oversize pulleys? [BryanD]
[ In reply to ]
BryanD wrote:
Don’t buy Ceramic Speed. Get the SLF Motion pulleys. https://www.slfmotion.comHmmmmm "Blake tells us that the 11-Tooth Hyper Pulley wheels were independently tested by Friction Facts to have 48% less friction than the next closest competitor."
So he is saying the SLF is 48% less friction than Ceramic Speed???? I find that impossible to believe...?
https://bikerumor.com/2018/01/26/slf-motion-shifts-hyper-speed-oversized-derailleur-pulley-system/
Re: oversize pulleys? [dunno]
[ In reply to ]
Why is it impossible? 48% less friction when the numbers are already quite small is certainly possible. I remember when the results were posted and yes, Blake did mail the pulley wheels into Friction Facts for testing.
Guess who bought Friction Facts? Ceramic Speed.
Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/
Guess who bought Friction Facts? Ceramic Speed.
Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/
Re: oversize pulleys? [BryanD]
[ In reply to ]
BryanD wrote:
Why is it impossible? 48% less friction when the numbers are already quite small is certainly possible. I remember when the results were posted and yes, Blake did mail the pulley wheels into Friction Facts for testing. Guess who bought Friction Facts? Ceramic Speed.
Well when Ceramic Speed are supposed to be the bees knees mega priced marginal gains piece of bling it sure would make them look pretty rubbish if SLF are twice as good as what they are. That's a huge difference
Re: oversize pulleys? [dunno]
[ In reply to ]
Ceramic Speed is overpriced with no performance advantage over other brands. SLF Motion makes a better product.
Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/
Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/
Re: oversize pulleys? [BryanD]
[ In reply to ]
BryanD wrote:
Ceramic Speed is overpriced with no performance advantage over other brands. SLF Motion makes a better product.maybe but SLF aint exactly cheap either.. on sale for $400.. usually $475. Who knows the new stuff might even be more $
Re: oversize pulleys? [spntrxi]
[ In reply to ]
spntrxi wrote:
BryanD wrote:
Ceramic Speed is overpriced with no performance advantage over other brands. SLF Motion makes a better product.maybe but SLF aint exactly cheap either.. on sale for $400.. usually $475. Who knows the new stuff might even be more $
I went with SLF and ended up selling them here at a big loss.
The problem with Blake and SLF is that it’s a one man show and they offer almost zero support. I bought both, the BB bearings and the Oversized pulleys. Something was wrong with the the BB bearings and my mechanic couldn’t get them to work, and I reached out to Blake and he had no answer. I offered to ship the whole bottom bracket so he could install it himself and ship it back to me, and he sinply offered to give me my money back. Fine.
I kept having issues with shifting on my di2. Took it to the local Trek shop to get it adjusted. They spent close to 1 hour messing around with it and just couldn’t make it shit properly. I reached out again to Blake and he said none of his other clients had issues. And that was it.
I took the system off and went back to Shimano stock pulleys.
If you are going to fork up $400+ I’d do it at one of those races where Ceramic Speed is there and they install it for you.
Re: oversize pulleys? [TulkasTri]
[ In reply to ]
We had some guys use SLF motion around here and the cages are of course malleable and they went the wrong way and into the spokes of their wheel. So why people are such SLF Motion lovers around here I'll never know. Ceramic Speed isn't a one man show of course and are the real deal...but a normal rider isn't going to get much out of them. Marginal gains et al.
Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
Re: oversize pulleys? [Allan]
[ In reply to ]
How well do the cheaper versions work?
Re: oversize pulleys? [cabdoctor]
[ In reply to ]
cabdoctor wrote:
How well do the cheaper versions work?How well do any of the versions work? Is this snake oil or is there proven data supporting watts saved?
Re: oversize pulleys? [Allan]
[ In reply to ]
I bought a second hand set of digirit pulleys, I don't think they provide any benefit other than psyching out the opposition.
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
Adam Savage
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
Adam Savage
Re: oversize pulleys? [doug in co]
[ In reply to ]
doug in co wrote:
The fact that Shimano, SRAM etc don't have any large-pulley systems, suggests to me that the advantages are really minimal.. there are quite a number of aftermarket large pulleys, so no patent clearly.On the other hand as long as Shimano, SRAM and Campagnolo do ALL not have larger pulleys on their high-end systems, they do not have to. They do not sell a single unit less, because the large pulleys on the market are always just a replacement with the smaller ones from these big companies. Maybe they just made a deal: as long as the deal holds they have no disadvantage at all.
Re: oversize pulleys? [Allan]
[ In reply to ]
Allan wrote:
So the ceramicspeed pulleys cost an awful lot of money for the upgrade but look pretty cool and have some loyal followers. Do they have some kind of patent on making the oversize pulleys? Why wouldn't Shimano just make larger diameter pulley systems an option like medium vs. short cage derailleurs if there is an improvement in performance?OverSized Pulley Wheels (OSPW) with ceramic bearing are more efficient because :
1-chain "curve" is reduced (less friction between chain parts)
2-pulley wheels RPM is reduced (as more teeth)
3-reduced friction on the bearing for same RPM (ceramic bearing)
This lead to around 2w+ gain vs Dura-Ace, and 3w+ vs Ultegra. It is the most important single gain you can have with ceramic bearing, and it comes only partly because of the bearings :-)
Negatives :
1-cost, of course
2-shifting precision : the larger the upper wheel, the more lateral constraint on the bearing, in term of force AND angle precision. If you look at the upper pulley wheel of an Ultegra 6800, you will notice it is not a ball bearing but a ceramic flat ring (plus joint generating lot of friction drag). I guess it is not to reduce cost (vs same bearing as on lower pulley) but to prevent lateral deviation of the upper pulley wheel and keep excellent shifting precision.
Difficult to evaluate if one brand is better than the others. Don't think so. But it must be a serious brand, mostly for shifting precision and resistance to failure.
Cycling Ceramic sponsor excellent french triathletes and supply several world tour teams for several years. So, serious brand also. And cost nearly half of Ceramic Speed.
https://www.cyclingceramic.fr
Re: oversize pulleys? [doug in co]
[ In reply to ]
doug in co wrote:
suspect the larger diameter pulleys don't help much, what helps and costs all that money, is the ceramic bearings.. .you've got it exactly backwards
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Re: oversize pulleys? [BryanD]
[ In reply to ]
I will second what Bryan said. Before friction facts got bought out by CS the SLF pulleys of that generation where sent in. I personally know Blake was slightly nerouvs about what results would come back with, but he did have the balls to do the independent testing. Like Bryan said the results spoke for themselves and SLF where shown to be faster.
The SLF cages are currently aluminum and over 2 years of riding them (and I put some good miles on them) never had a issue. Ceramic Speed is molded plastic carbon fiber which I have not had a single freind riding those heard of those breaking either.
Heard next month SLF could be releasing some updates that will be a big improvement over the current system, but price will remain the same. (Insert emoji)
For me this has boiled down to do with all the work I put in I really want to ride the best products on race day. I also want to trust that everything I have on my bike is going to hold up and not break. With that being said having OS pulleys and gaining that 2 watts with a possible improved drivetrain effecency is such a no brainer. 2 watts here 2-3 watts in some other places it all starts to add up.
2024: Bevoman, Galveston, Alcatraz, Marble Falls, Santa Cruz
The SLF cages are currently aluminum and over 2 years of riding them (and I put some good miles on them) never had a issue. Ceramic Speed is molded plastic carbon fiber which I have not had a single freind riding those heard of those breaking either.
Heard next month SLF could be releasing some updates that will be a big improvement over the current system, but price will remain the same. (Insert emoji)
For me this has boiled down to do with all the work I put in I really want to ride the best products on race day. I also want to trust that everything I have on my bike is going to hold up and not break. With that being said having OS pulleys and gaining that 2 watts with a possible improved drivetrain effecency is such a no brainer. 2 watts here 2-3 watts in some other places it all starts to add up.
2024: Bevoman, Galveston, Alcatraz, Marble Falls, Santa Cruz
Last edited by:
Toothengineer: Nov 14, 18 4:56
Re: oversize pulleys? [Pyrenean Wolf]
[ In reply to ]
Pyrenean Wolf wrote:
Allan wrote:
So the ceramicspeed pulleys cost an awful lot of money for the upgrade but look pretty cool and have some loyal followers. Do they have some kind of patent on making the oversize pulleys? Why wouldn't Shimano just make larger diameter pulley systems an option like medium vs. short cage derailleurs if there is an improvement in performance?OverSized Pulley Wheels (OSPW) with ceramic bearing are more efficient because :
1-chain "curve" is reduced (less friction between chain parts)
2-pulley wheels RPM is reduced (as more teeth)
3-reduced friction on the bearing for same RPM (ceramic bearing)
This lead to around 2w+ gain vs Dura-Ace, and 3w+ vs Ultegra. It is the most important single gain you can have with ceramic bearing, and it comes only partly because of the bearings :-)
Negatives :
1-cost, of course
2-shifting precision : the larger the upper wheel, the more lateral constraint on the bearing, in term of force AND angle precision. If you look at the upper pulley wheel of an Ultegra 6800, you will notice it is not a ball bearing but a ceramic flat ring (plus joint generating lot of friction drag). I guess it is not to reduce cost (vs same bearing as on lower pulley) but to prevent lateral deviation of the upper pulley wheel and keep excellent shifting precision.
Difficult to evaluate if one brand is better than the others. Don't think so. But it must be a serious brand, mostly for shifting precision and resistance to failure.
Cycling Ceramic sponsor excellent french triathletes and supply several world tour teams for several years. So, serious brand also. And cost nearly half of Ceramic Speed.
https://www.cyclingceramic.fr
The pulleys are on the unloaded side of the chain so there is very little to no effect of bigger radius reducing friction.
Cages geometry is optimised for stock size pulleys, you WILL get less precise and noisy shifting with oversize.
Oversize pulleys require longer chain, more weight.
The big manufacturers do not use them because it is snake oil.
Seals in bearings are the predominant friction in any pulley system, less friction, shittier seals, more maintenance and shorter lifetime.
You want low friction for a road TT, pop the seals on the stock pulleys, clean out the grease and wax the bearings and leave the seals off.
lyrrad wrote:
Pyrenean Wolf wrote:
Allan wrote:
So the ceramicspeed pulleys cost an awful lot of money for the upgrade but look pretty cool and have some loyal followers. Do they have some kind of patent on making the oversize pulleys? Why wouldn't Shimano just make larger diameter pulley systems an option like medium vs. short cage derailleurs if there is an improvement in performance?OverSized Pulley Wheels (OSPW) with ceramic bearing are more efficient because :
1-chain "curve" is reduced (less friction between chain parts)
2-pulley wheels RPM is reduced (as more teeth)
3-reduced friction on the bearing for same RPM (ceramic bearing)
This lead to around 2w+ gain vs Dura-Ace, and 3w+ vs Ultegra. It is the most important single gain you can have with ceramic bearing, and it comes only partly because of the bearings :-)
Negatives :
1-cost, of course
2-shifting precision : the larger the upper wheel, the more lateral constraint on the bearing, in term of force AND angle precision. If you look at the upper pulley wheel of an Ultegra 6800, you will notice it is not a ball bearing but a ceramic flat ring (plus joint generating lot of friction drag). I guess it is not to reduce cost (vs same bearing as on lower pulley) but to prevent lateral deviation of the upper pulley wheel and keep excellent shifting precision.
Difficult to evaluate if one brand is better than the others. Don't think so. But it must be a serious brand, mostly for shifting precision and resistance to failure.
Cycling Ceramic sponsor excellent french triathletes and supply several world tour teams for several years. So, serious brand also. And cost nearly half of Ceramic Speed.
https://www.cyclingceramic.fr
The pulleys are on the unloaded side of the chain so there is very little to no effect of bigger radius reducing friction.
Cages geometry is optimised for stock size pulleys, you WILL get less precise and noisy shifting with oversize.
Oversize pulleys require longer chain, more weight.
The big manufacturers do not use them because it is snake oil.
Seals in bearings are the predominant friction in any pulley system, less friction, shittier seals, more maintenance and shorter lifetime.
You want low friction for a road TT, pop the seals on the stock pulleys, clean out the grease and wax the bearings and leave the seals off.
a) Unloaded side... little or no effect on reducing friction... :
power = force x speed, if more teeth, less speed, less power loss. Same gain in pourcentage as if loaded. Of course, you are right, base friction value is less as unloaded, but still the figures are there. Certainly not "no effect". Small effect, yes, and can be measured. Can't prove it by my guess is, compared to Ultegra :
1w+ for bearing + seals
1w for lower pulley speed from pulley size
1w+ for chain "curving"
b) what you propose "removing the seals", yes, and you will get even more saving with less chain "curve" (my positive point 1) and larger pulleys (my positive point 2), but yes more cost (my negative 1) less precision in shifting (my negative 2) + more maintenance (as you say).