For a swimmer one could record the number of strokes per length per 50 yards and use the count and the time to determine if efficiency has improved. And if one were interested in their metabolic/cardio fitness there's always the balls to the wall time trial and 200 yd. swim.

For a runner, I think faster is faster is all that is really measurable.

And for all disciplines, faster is FASTER.

Yeah, but that's probably at least partially coincidental, i.e., over time her power:heart rate ratio has improved and she's dug her way out of the "pain cave", but aside from perhaps weeks 8 and 16, the latter likely isn't causing the former.


I'll give you a free copy of our book if you can guess what I think the real title should have been (i.e., the reason that I started this thread). :-)


Usually ~1.2.


I assume you mean based on the critical power paradigm? If so, the answer is, I really don't know, because I don't have a good handle on her current anaerobic work capacity (not enough short duration, truly maximal efforts to accurately estimate it).

I can tell you for certain that I have done more "balls to the wall" Time trials in nearly every distance from 100' up to 500's than I care to remember. The sets I do remember usually ended in my vomiting which is why I remember them so well. I can also tell you that my times for such efforts, which were done usually once, but sometimes twice a week outside of competition, varied wildly. One day I could get in a pop off a set of 4-6 200's all around 1:45-1:48, but the week before I might have done the same thing and not been able to break 1:50 for any one of the 200's. The I feel like I am gonna vomit I went so hard effort was the same between the sets, the watched didn't lie, but maybe I had a breakdown in stroke, or possibly I was tried and needed a break, maybe I was sick, or possibly my fitness improved? Who knows what the reason would have been without a device to measure power or efficiency.

But my question to your first post stands- is there a direct correlation between the effort and time of a training set that could be used in other sports which don't have the benefit of a device like a power meter?

If 4:00@100% perceived efforts are the ticket to increasing aerobic fitness in cycling, then can I assume that doing a set of say 400's (about 4:00 for a good swimmer) swimming would provide the same benefit for a swimmer?

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I'm just a 10 cent rider on a $2,500.00 Bike

If 4:00@100% perceived efforts are the ticket to increasing aerobic fitness in cycling, then can I assume that doing a set of say 400's (about 4:00 for a good swimmer) swimming would provide the same benefit for a swimmer?

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I think the duration of the work interval is important. Longer intervals will result in more lactate accumulation, and AC, I'm pretty sure, was picking these durations with the intent to avoid LT training.

The recovery interval is really important, too.

I'm interacting on this thread so I can learn, just like you are. Hopefully AC or Paulo will hit me with a stick if I say something terribly wrong. I don't think they're shy.

Shy....no

But if AC replies my guess is that we will learn something, but is Paulo replies we just get hit with a stick.

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I'm just a 10 cent rider on a $2,500.00 Bike

"I'll give you a free copy of our book if you can guess what I think the real title should have been (i.e., the reason that I started this thread). :-)"

OK, I'll give 'er a shot...

"Multi-tasking For the Experts: How to Place Your Wife on a Pedestal in Front of a Bunch of Triathletes and a Few Lurking Cyclists While Engaging Two of the Most Tried and Trued ST Forum Arguers, P-to-the-Aulo and Frank Dizzay, in a Circular Debate That Will Have Onlookers Both Feeling the Need to Buy Your Book and Laugh at the Idiocy of Physically Mature Men Who Can't Seem to Just Accept a Few Pearls of Wisdom From One Another From Time to Time and Let the Other Shit Spewed Just Fall Between the Cracks into Oblivion...by Andrew C-not-D-O-doubleG-A-N."

Send to

Joe Wiley
PO BOX 2777
Running Springs, CA 92382

Thanks for having thick skin, I really do appreciate you bringing data here from time to time.

Yes, I was thinking more along the lines of the critical power paradigm, but 1.2xFTP would probably get me pretty close to eliciting the desired results, eh?

Hmm...close, but no cigar. However, if you're going to give the talent pool TT another shot, I will try to remember to bring a copy of the book for you anyway.


Actually, I don't think you even need to get that detailed...just do 20-30 min of intervals 3-5 min in length at the highest intensity you can manage w/o slowing down dramatically, and you'll be golden. Being able to, e.g., quantify your power output can help you get through such workouts "in style" and in tweaking your overall training program to maximize the results, but to a large extent it is just a matter being willing to "do your homework" (and picking your parents wisely, of course).

sojourner: is your AWC really 500J/kg -- bloody hell that's 2.5X mine. What durations are you using in your CP-AWC testing?

Book title: Beware of Cranks bearing Power ;-)

Sorry, just a little lost ... the athlete in question can do 6 x 4 min @ 120% FTP (from your 1.2 figure)?

Really? That is damn good! 110% is as good as I can do (so far).

You tracked heart rate for 20 years. Do you still do this in laboratory like conditions?

Dude, this thread is from seven years ago.

Yep. Stumbled upon it. Thread came up in a search.

Thought Dr Coggan didn't use heart rate.

Asking if he still uses it in laboratory conditions where temperature is controlled? Or, if not, when he ditched the strap and why?

This thread is nearly as old as WKO 3. WHEN IS WKO 4 COMING OUT!!!!!!

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He who understands the WHY, will understand the HOW.

Is WKO4 going to make anyone one iota faster?

WKO4 has been in the can for so long, it's not getting released - it's getting paroled.

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float , hammer , and jog

Bravo. I've asked this before as well. Wtf is it going to do for any of us? A power duration model? So instead of actually testing my FTP I plug in some maximums at certain durations? Sure where do I sign up.

Have my training levels ever done anything for you? Power profiling? NP/TSS? Quadrant analysis? The PMC?

If the answer is yes to any of the above, consider this: while it has been nearly 10 y since I stopped sharing my ideas with the world-at-large, that doesn't mean I've lost the capacity for original thought.

That's great to hear. So what can we expect to see? I'm not asking for when but what can we triathletes expect in WKO 4 to help with our training and racing?

Does this mean you have ideas which you divulge only to a chosen few?

for Dr Coggan,
At what point in the training year would you add in these v02 workouts? Would you still advocate them for a rider who is in his mid-50's?