Agreed, this comment keeps popping up and its simply not true. Rev3 almost always had 20+ pros just on the men's side. I actually stopped going to them because I could get better results, better exposure, and better money at select WTC races. And in hindsight I would make that same decision again.

The Rev3 pro field closure had nothing to do with pros not showing up, plain and simple. I am confident that they simply overspent, when they didn't need to. I can pretty much guarantee if they bring back even low paying $15k type races, that plenty of pros will show up!

I'm sure some of them were. But I'm don't think Rev3 would have dropped the purses altogether if they felt it was attracting any number of pros.

Oh . . and to clarify my other statement, I DO THINK it is important that there are pro purses at ALL events. It just doesn't influence my personal decision to race. I think it is a bit of a crock that WTC can't put more money into all their races and go deeper than 6th place with the amount of profits they pull in.

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Pete Githens
Reading, PA

Ha, 4 elites showed up for Rev3 Williamsburg Oly with a <$5000 prize purse so I definitely agree with that... (me being one of them).

But my point is, this guy is more than just a guy with "pro" written on his calf. This is the type of guy that you want to develop and see his development through because he's going to make podiums. But if the chances of those podiums get taken away, not much you can do.

And no I'm not saying WTC needs to develop "their" future pros. What I'm saying is, this is the type of talent your likely going to lose when you make the decisions WTC is going to make.

So if WTC wants to cut out half the pro fields, good on them, just be careful what your left 10 years down the road.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

I will admit I am being a bit belligerent when I say this, but lose to where? or what?

I don't really know who the top 10 guys are today let alone 5-10 years from now. Sorry to rehash all the same old crap from post after post on this issue, but I just don't get it maybe.

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______________________________________________

I *heart* weak, dumb ass people...

Quality of product
ET: Which again to you it doesn't matter, and that's fine, it's not right or wrong you don't care or don't know who the top 10 athletes in the world are. If you want to stay in your bubble, go for it. But when your a company and want to improve your brand, that certainly isn't how you do it.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Ok, I was wondering how to vote on the most recent forum poll and you gave me my answer..."I'm oblivious" it is for me.


ETA, seems I'm not alone.

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I *heart* weak, dumb ass people...

WTC has 110 events. 5 years ago they probably had 1/3 that. They have made clear their rapid growth phase is far from complete, so a few years from now we can expect 150 maybe 200 races. Obviously fast pro triathletes are not being generated at the same growth rate as WTC is putting on new races. The pro field is diluted by all the new events.

In your mind at 110 races WTC should still be putting out substantial prize money at each and every one of them. At what point would you agree that it makes sense that WTC treat some of it's races as big, important, championship races with a big purse and others as small races with little or no purse. 200? 300? 1000 races? How deep is the pro talent pool in your mind? How many races should WTC be hosting for pros?

Finally, let's look at it a different way. Imagine that WTC only put on pro races. No amateur fields whatsoever. Kinda like ITU. Given the current number of long-course pros, how many races do you think WTC would have in it's series. 20? 40 maybe? Surely less than the 110 of today. You must agree with that.

So, just because WTC has grown the hell out of the sport due to the high demand by amateurs does not mean it should be adding pro purses in direct correlation when quality and quantity of pros have not grown at the same rate.

To expand on your point. From a MOP recreational athlete, I won't pay $700 to do a WTC race in which they're pocketing all the money. Why would I do IMFL when for half the cost I could do The Great Floridian in Clermont. I could save $300 and get a better course, the only thing missing would be the fanfare.

I think it's cool what Mike's doing. Everybody has been going back and forth arguing about pro's pay at WTC, finally a pro is stepping up. Hopefully more follow suit

"Not necessarily that he doesn't understand it. Perhaps that he simply doesn't believe it."

i'm sure it's both. like science, or anything evidence-based, if you don't understand it you won't believe it.

"The doomsday scenarios about it withering on the vine if we don't all "support our pros" are absurd."

just, again, ad nauseum for people who just aren't reading, i am not advocating "support our pros".

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I get the foundation argument and I agree 100% we wouldn't be where we are today without pros building the sport... but we are where we are today. Perhaps we have moved on as a sport/industry and the professional triathlete truly doesn't matter much anymore. Things are constantly evolving and changing and this just might be the directional reality. We have been having this same debate for the better part of the last decade and nothing much has changed, and I would in fact state things have become more dire for the professional triathlete. This just might be a losing battle despite the best efforts and intentions.

I've been firmly in the "Pros don't matter" camp but I do believe they could matter with some changes. I don't know what those changes would entail but it's also not my problem to solve.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

Oh no, that's not condescending at all.




I realize you aren't advocating anything like that. I read the article. That part was more addressed to others who seem to think so. I should have made that clear

While making individual market decisions is one way to influence a market, it certainly isn't the only way. Employing speech is another. Particularly when said speech coordinated amongst a variety of influential stakeholders. This is apparent every day in the business world, in all kinds of markets.


>I feel like the "Petition against WTC" is beating a dead horse. Take the path of least resistance:
>-Choose another company and figure out a business model to bring in more athletes that would support a pro field.

I'd disagree on what constitutes "least resistance." It'd likely take a large investment in time and capital to formulate and enact a business model that would be disruptive to WTC's hold on the long-course market. Never underestimate the power of branding. By comparison it's there's very little capital or time involved in coordinating speech on a blog or Web site! TheRealStarky, for example, likely caused really good discussion in WTC's boardroom, and possibly some concrete change in WTC's practices, without much investment in capital.

I agree with you. WTC's grip on long course triathlon is so strong I think the best way to fight it is by taking a stand and being vocal. Step out and speak loud. Voice your opinion.

I don't get it. What exactly will a petition do when you are asking someone else to spend their money?

For example, if you started a petition that posits that all STers who have completed at least one triathlon in the racing year should donate 10% of their paycheck to support pro triathlete salary, I'm still not giving you my money regardless of how many signatures are on that petition.

Now, I'm of the opinion that if you want to encourage the WTC to spend their money at a specific race in the future, you have to do something to make it worth their while. Give them a reason to offer a purse. You could get a large group of pros to approach Messick and negotiate a deal that you guys/ gals will bring something to the race in exchange for money. Clinics. Meet and greets. Kissing booths. Pros massaging the AGers during the awards ceremony. Something that will create buzz. I highly doubt that a petition will hold any value to the decision makers.

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

Meh.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

1. This will make it much more difficult for pros to get the exposure they need for sponsorships. Yes you will now not be able to sandbag races and will have to compete with the best out there to make a living, just like the rest of the world.
2. It will make the top 20-30 triathletes in the world very profitable and leave the others at a severe disadvantage when trying to compete with them. This is how every sport is that is not a mega sport (soccer, basketball, football, rugby etc), i have a good friend who went pro in tennis, cracked the top 100 and even the top 50...he was still barely scraping by and tennis is way more popular than triathlon and has much more money. Golf/Running/cycling/bass fishing is the same way, gosh that is how life works, the top 1% in their respective fields make the big bucks.
3. Having races with smaller prize purses allows new pros to get some recognition and move up the ranks. This is the same as point number 1, just delete this for redundancy. Also prize purse does not necessitate that well established pro's will not show up and crush all the pretenders if their sponsors would like an appearance and are willing to pay.
4. Having age groupers now being able to say they are an Ironman Champion lessens the accomplishment of any pro being able to say they won an Ironman. Thus making it harder for Pros to get sponsors for winning an Ironman branded race. I think you are just pissed that there are age groupers out there who are faster than you but since you have a pro card you have some entitlement complex. I can promise you no serious pro gives a crap if some non pro wins a race and says they are a champion...we can all see the finishing times (we can see yours as well).
5. Less foreign athletes will spend time in the USA in the summer because of the lack of races with prize purses and could spend their summers in Europe instead where all the races kept their prize purses. Or just the really good athletes come over and compete in the higher prize purse events making for much more exciting racing and we as viewers get to reap the benefits and sponsors get to build up the hype of a super competitive field.
6. Pro triathletes at events inspire people to get involved in the sport and bring value/legitimacy to the sport. No other sport in the world allows pros and amateurs to race together on the same course under the same conditions. (1) i did not start triathlon, ever enter a triathlon, or care to enter a triathlon because of a professional field. If i am going to a triathlon to watch the pro field i would rather be watching the race and not racing....better yet i would rather be a home watching it on the TV. (2) i have been inspired by pro's.....but just the really good ones who race at really competitive events and excel in the toughest fields, showing their natural ability.
Here are some things that will not be happening next year at just one of the races, Ironman Louisville, next year:
1. There were 4 pro panels (one on Wednesday hosted by Sweaty Sheep, one on Thursday at VO2 Multisport, one hosted by Ironman on Friday, and one hosted by Primal Sport Mud on Saturday)......and the benefit of this is?
2. Radio show with pro athletes from the Primal Sport Mud expo. It would help if you added some additional information as to why this is good/important/beneficial to the local community etc.
3. Chris McDonald and Kate Bevilaqua were on the morning news (Great Day Live) before the race. Which nobody watches

4. Nina Kraft and Chris McDonald were with the Mayor and Louisville Slugger, Chris got a key to the city! No comment
5. The men's finish came down to 17 seconds and was super exciting! And the value in that is......since its not on TV for anybody to watch it.
6. Louisville had a it's own pro finish in the Top 4th!.....what is the top 4th, is that some sort of consolidation for not hanging with the big dogs (well small big dogs to be more accurate)

As a "pro" triathlete winning races is great but what do you provide to the sponsors? Let's be honest unless you are a top 20 pro most sponsors really do not care about your results that much at a national level, they want something extra that you can offer them. Macca, Crowie, and even still Lieto have instant name recognition in this sport due to their race results, that alone can make the sponsors investment worth their wild. These individuals also do a lot more than race, all three have invested heavily in the sport through charities, coaching, speaking, and growing the triathlon market. Starky crushes bike legs so badly every race Orbea has constant marketing material. Gomez/Frodeno/Don/Kienle/etc just win so much they have instant marketing value due to how many pictures are taken of them and their media exposure at the top level.

In an already small over saturated market you cannot act like one of these pro's because you are not one. You have to really work hard at things outside of racing, the business side of things. This requires innovation and the innovative thinking will prevail. Complaining about prize purses will do nothing to gain sponsors and now you are just know as the slow pro who complains about making races more competitive.

My Advice: Get a real job that allows you to race at a high level. It can be done, the guy who just won the USA cycling national championships works a full time job and crushed a huge pro field. You are around 20 minutes off the winner in the most 70.3's and the races are only getting faster with all the ITU guys, you have a lot of work to do. The time you spent writing this petition you could have spent writing a letter to a local business on your innovative way to bring more traffic through their doors and more money into your pockets.

Get a real job that allows you to race at a high level.

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If I'm not mistaken, Mike has a "real" job (or part time job or whatever we want to call it) working at a hospital. He's also started his own coaching business, done well with his athletes, and overall is doing good things in the tri world. You may not like his stance, and I actually don't particularly agree with the idea, but I don't fault someone for essentially fighting for his career. But, I think LC triathlon as a whole needs to look at itself in the mirror and figure ways to get better and make itself more exposure. Maybe this brings the pros together and maybe allows an race production to do something out of the box thinking. Maybe this gets dropped in the cracks in a week, which I think is the more likely scenario. I think WTC as the bad guy is the wrong play but they are easy to beat up on because they are the "money hungry" capitalistic bad guy. WTC cant honestly support a full on pro circuit without outside money from somewhere (easiest in other sports is advertising dollars), that's where I feel our energy needs to go. Come up with innovative ideas to get LC racing more exposure, more opportunities to get picked up on internet telecasts (and no this silly stream they have now doenst count).

One easy idea: When your a pro on ST, somehow/someway either post as Your name or have a signature on your posts. ST is a great resource for pros, but if "we" don't know who you are, you can get lost.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

  

i have a good friend who went pro in tennis, cracked the top 100 and even the top 50...he was still barely scraping by and tennis is way more popular than triathlon and has much more money. Golf/Running/cycling/bass fishing is the same way, gosh that is how life works, the top 1% in their respective fields make the big bucks.
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Either your friend is an idiot with money or he wasn't as high as you say he was, or your example is from 25 years ago in tennis.

Currently there are 262 players on the ATP Tour that have made $50k in 2014 as of this week (and one of bigger purses has still not even been given out, US Open).

Why is it possible that so many in Tennis can "scrape by"? Because of TV and advertising. There are a TON of ATP tourneys broadcast on ESPN in the summer and every major is broadcast live.

Until LC triathlon figures out a way to make it marketable to some type of TV/media market (online programming), it's going to be a sport where only 30 triathletes live off just racing (and sponsors), and the rest will have to hustle 2-3 other jobs or be a full time in something else and race on the side.

Triathlon is no where near tennis or golf, those are terrible examples.

ETA: Again this shouldn't be about WTC, this should be about LC triathlon as a whole. And maybe the reason why everyone is hating on WTC is because LC triathlon simply is "dead" in terms of bringing in more money, and so WTC is their last island of hope to "make it". But I'd love to see more innovation from pros and the industry.

Should we go to a multi lapped venues for all pro races? 15 miles loops where they come by the crowds every 45 mins? 5 10k loops on the run to showcase their talents in front of crowds?

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

I think Tennis is a great example because it has worldwide exposure, lots of advertising, large TV market, huge fan following which will go to events, but it still does not pay extremely well if you are not a top professional. Considering he did in fact stay in the top 100 for an extended time his earning were still matched with very expensive travel, training, gear, and coaching. I know he made well over 50k a year, but he also had to spend a lot on the sport. He was also not good enough to stay in the top 100 for very long and was not smart from a financial standpoint to garner support.

Actually doing a Rev3 race casts your vote that you don't feel pros at races are important.

Mike,

2014 KPR system had 30 races with $$$ and points....(excluding Kona)
9 in Europe
13 in North & South America
8 in Rest of the World

2015 KPR has 32 races....(excluding Kona)
11 in Europe
12 in North & South America
9 in Rest of the World

What aspect of the above change do you feel is not equitable in a global sport of triathlon with pro athletes globally?

I am as concerned about the sports development as you are but look at the sport globally not locally....

I think only the vocal minority of triathletes care about having pros race, and all the town want for their "investment" is full hotel rooms. I think that WTC will/should rotate who gets the prize purse so the top pros will eventually be at LP rather than "development" pros who do it now.

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"the trick is to keep losing weight until your friends and family ask you if you've been sick. then you know you're within 10 pounds. if they start whispering to each other, wondering if you've got cancer or aids, you're within 5. when they actually do an intervention, you're at race weight." - Slowman

possibly. Certainly the sport would be different. But I look at the success of swimming, and recreational running (5K's 10K's marathons, etc) These sports have pros as well, but the sucess of the sport itself isn't driven by the pros. Most of the people entered in the NYC marathon couldn't tell you who won last year's race, for example. For the most part, i don't think that pros attract entrants to the sport, the entrants look at the pros to see what they use after they are already in the sport. Swimming was a huge participation sport before there was ever any such thing as a professional swimmer. I don't recall the running boom of the 70's being driven by pros.

So triathlon today would be different if not for pros. But maybe not worse...

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

I agree with everything you say, except that in bold. The running boom of the 70s was heavily influenced by Frank Shorter, Bill Rodgers, Alberto Salazar.