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Zwift vs reality
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This is not a knock on Zwift or any of the virtual programs out there and forgive my ignorance. This is just a question.
How close to reality is a Zwift ride/race compared to a real outdoor race. I have used Zwift once. I usually ride on Rouvy.
I find Rouvy is close to my “real” times, but I may be a mile an hour faster.
My friends on Zwift are posting unbelievable times. I realize there is a drafting component, but it seems like Zwift speeds are more like one is in a peleton of 200 riders.
How close to a real outdoor time/speed is a Zwift ride? I am guessing 2-4mph?
Thanks!

Team Zoot So Cal
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Re: Zwift vs reality [Karl] [ In reply to ]
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I find zwift is fairly accurate....If you factor for:

1. Your avatar rides on the drops most of the time (except for slow speeds, and drafting).

2. You don't have any stops, or need to slow for corners.

3. There is no coasting (on zwift we're pedaling down 10% grades; you don't see that IRL).

4. Your avatar can have the latest aero road bike with deep carbon wheels. IRL many of us aren't so well equipped.

5. There is no wind to contend with; every day on zwift is perfectly calm.

6. All of Watopia exists at sea level (even the top of AdZ).


On something like Fuego Flats, I find that the speed my avatar does at given watts correlates well with what I see IRL on a flat road.

Speed is cycling is influenced by so many factors (road surface, wind, temperature, etc.) that personally I'm not concerned how my avatar's speeds compare to IRL as long as it's not ludicrously off.

ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)
Last edited by: Titanflexr: Feb 6, 21 19:13
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Re: Zwift vs reality [Karl] [ In reply to ]
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Karl wrote:
This is not a knock on Zwift or any of the virtual programs out there and forgive my ignorance. This is just a question.
How close to reality is a Zwift ride/race compared to a real outdoor race. I have used Zwift once. I usually ride on Rouvy.
I find Rouvy is close to my “real” times, but I may be a mile an hour faster.
My friends on Zwift are posting unbelievable times. I realize there is a drafting component, but it seems like Zwift speeds are more like one is in a peleton of 200 riders.
How close to a real outdoor time/speed is a Zwift ride? I am guessing 2-4mph?
Thanks!

Zwift is just a tool to help me get rides in. The fact there are races and a governing body out there to suspend people is kinda funny for me.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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Re: Zwift vs reality [Karl] [ In reply to ]
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It’s the Zwift draft effect which is huge. On solo efforts it’s more realistic.

With the draft A mop rider can easily average 25mph in Zwift even if they can’t even break 29 in real world solo.
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Re: Zwift vs reality [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
It’s the Zwift draft effect which is huge. On solo efforts it’s more realistic.

With the draft A mop rider can easily average 25mph in Zwift even if they can’t even break 29 in real world solo.

Did you meant the opposite?

On a zwift group ride where no one is doing above 4.0 w/kg, the group will average ~28 mph (or more) on flat grounds (road bike position), whereas it's conceivable that many in that group could not hold 25 mph for a prolonged period solo on IRL flat terrain.

Breaking 29 mph is pretty rarefied territory IRL, even on a TT bike.
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Re: Zwift vs reality [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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echappist wrote:
lightheir wrote:
It’s the Zwift draft effect which is huge. On solo efforts it’s more realistic.

With the draft A mop rider can easily average 25mph in Zwift even if they can’t even break 29 in real world solo.


Did you meant the opposite?

On a zwift group ride where no one is doing above 4.0 w/kg, the group will average ~28 mph (or more) on flat grounds (road bike position), whereas it's conceivable that many in that group could not hold 25 mph for a prolonged period solo on IRL flat terrain.

Breaking 29 mph is pretty rarefied territory IRL, even on a TT bike.

Sorry typo, meant breaking 20mph in real world (not 29) vs 25mph in Zwift. It's that much of a difference with the big draft.
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Re: Zwift vs reality [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, the pack (blob) dynamics in zwift are a LOT different than out on the road. The wattage distribution is fairly even across the blob, whereas a real pack has a lot of wattage being put out by the folks on the front and many of the folks sheltered in the pack soft pedaling.

The "C" pace partner on Zwift is a great place to see the difference, since that is a fairly large blob and the road is flat.

ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)
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Re: Zwift vs reality [Karl] [ In reply to ]
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I would actually wholeheartedly disagree with the "seems like Zwift speeds are more like one[sic] is in a peloton [anti-sic?] of 200 riders." If you are comparing solo rides outside vs solo rides on Zwift then I agree with other folks in this thread: it's not having to slow down on corners and getting the periodic drafts as you overtake people and are overtaken. However, when it comes to group riding in Zwift, it is much much tougher than group riding IRL. In Zwift you max-out your drafting benefit at 1 person. If you are in the middle of dozens of persons, it doesn't matter, you are still only getting the draft as if there was only one person. So for group rides, they might be faster on Zwift than my outside group rides, but I am working my butt off in Zwift whereas I can get some chances to coast in outside group rides.
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Re: Zwift vs reality [KAlbert] [ In reply to ]
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KAlbert wrote:
I would actually wholeheartedly disagree with the "seems like Zwift speeds are more like one[sic] is in a peloton [anti-sic?] of 200 riders." If you are comparing solo rides outside vs solo rides on Zwift then I agree with other folks in this thread: it's not having to slow down on corners and getting the periodic drafts as you overtake people and are overtaken. However, when it comes to group riding in Zwift, it is much much tougher than group riding IRL. In Zwift you max-out your drafting benefit at 1 person. If you are in the middle of dozens of persons, it doesn't matter, you are still only getting the draft as if there was only one person. So for group rides, they might be faster on Zwift than my outside group rides, but I am working my butt off in Zwift whereas I can get some chances to coast in outside group rides.

I'd agree with this. Racing in a pack or a hard group ride on Zwift is tough. There is no respite. Riding in a pack IRL I can freewheel for short periods on complete flats drafting behind someone. You always have opportunities to get a breather. Doesn't seem like that with Zwift, even downhills people seem to ride hard to get past the 57km/hr point when you can supertuck.

And people say the average speed on Zwift is unrealistic. How often do you get to ride completely flat roads, with perfect tarmac and zero wind. When you do you'll average similar to Zwift.
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Re: Zwift vs reality [Titanflexr] [ In reply to ]
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I don’t think the wattage is close.
For example I finished a 2 hr ride with an avg of 216 watts, in the charts others around and top of me we’re only 3 or 4 above 200 other around 160, one even 127! Have to say I only have the Numbers from my vector2s.
Seems weird to me but as long as I get a ride in I couldn’t care less.

-shoki
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Re: Zwift vs reality [shoki] [ In reply to ]
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shoki wrote:
I don’t think the wattage is close.
For example I finished a 2 hr ride with an avg of 216 watts, in the charts others around and top of me we’re only 3 or 4 above 200 other around 160, one even 127! Have to say I only have the Numbers from my vector2s.
Seems weird to me but as long as I get a ride in I couldn’t care less.

W/kg
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Re: Zwift vs reality [ In reply to ]
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1. Just a fun tool, anything else is separate.

2. In groups, the speeds are laughable. Especially races. Our local crits for 3/4/5 are like 26 to 27mph. Not 29 to 30. Next, IRL racing it isn’t sitting at threshold for 45min then pray for a sprint. I usually have 75% of my time in zones at z1 and z2.

To show how laughable the Zwift draft is start doing a few “world hack” rides or startup then disconnect internet to ride alone. Then it is realistic.
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Re: Zwift vs reality [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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I would think speed is a terribly laughable metric when your not actually moving in any setup. (not meaning to state the obvious, I just keep reading about "speed" and it kinda leaves me scratching my head....your on a trainer, not moving, speed is complete essentially a fake number at that point).

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Zwift vs reality [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
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zedzded wrote:

And people say the average speed on Zwift is unrealistic. How often do you get to ride completely flat roads, with perfect tarmac and zero wind. When you do you'll average similar to Zwift.

For solo riding, this is largely true

However, this still does not account for the insanely low CdA conferred by riding in a group of 10+, where the first few riders generate comparable power. IRL, a solo rider doing 330 W (at 70 kg) will pull away from a group where the leader pulls at 260 W (at 70 kg). On Zwift, if a group is driven by five riders doing 260 W (at 70 kg), that group will reel back the solo rider (I've been there on both sides of things).
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Re: Zwift vs reality [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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echappist wrote:
zedzded wrote:


And people say the average speed on Zwift is unrealistic. How often do you get to ride completely flat roads, with perfect tarmac and zero wind. When you do you'll average similar to Zwift.


For solo riding, this is largely true

However, this still does not account for the insanely low CdA conferred by riding in a group of 10+, where the first few riders generate comparable power. IRL, a solo rider doing 330 W (at 70 kg) will pull away from a group where the leader pulls at 260 W (at 70 kg). On Zwift, if a group is driven by five riders doing 260 W (at 70 kg), that group will reel back the solo rider (I've been there on both sides of things).
Have you noticed a difference in the races that have full draft mode? Presumably the riders 'sitting in' need to generate less power so the average for the group is lower but it's not clear if the speed of the group is determined by the average power of the group or the lead rider.
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Re: Zwift vs reality [Karl] [ In reply to ]
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I'm quicker in reality than on zwift.

Probably because I'm smaller and have lower drag than what Zwift predicts.
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Re: Zwift vs reality [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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echappist wrote:
However, this still does not account for the insanely low CdA conferred by riding in a group of 10+, where the first few riders generate comparable power. IRL, a solo rider doing 330 W (at 70 kg) will pull away from a group where the leader pulls at 260 W (at 70 kg). On Zwift, if a group is driven by five riders doing 260 W (at 70 kg), that group will reel back the solo rider (I've been there on both sides of things).

I have the same impression.

How does the multi body simulation of Zwift work? How is the calculation work distributed between server an clients? Anyone here who knows the simulation techniques of such video games?

I suppose that the clients do solve the „local“ equation of motion. In order to get the interaction with others, the clients get every time step a list of riders in the neighborhood. Depending of the number of neighbors the client can calculate something like the lokal air density, i.e. in a group everyone cycles in a „cloud“ of low air density. But inside this cloud every one his individual cda, mass, location, speed, gradient etc.
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Re: Zwift vs reality [BergHugi] [ In reply to ]
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gregf83 wrote:
echappist wrote:
zedzded wrote:


And people say the average speed on Zwift is unrealistic. How often do you get to ride completely flat roads, with perfect tarmac and zero wind. When you do you'll average similar to Zwift.


For solo riding, this is largely true

However, this still does not account for the insanely low CdA conferred by riding in a group of 10+, where the first few riders generate comparable power. IRL, a solo rider doing 330 W (at 70 kg) will pull away from a group where the leader pulls at 260 W (at 70 kg). On Zwift, if a group is driven by five riders doing 260 W (at 70 kg), that group will reel back the solo rider (I've been there on both sides of things).

Have you noticed a difference in the races that have full draft mode? Presumably the riders 'sitting in' need to generate less power so the average for the group is lower but it's not clear if the speed of the group is determined by the average power of the group or the lead rider.

I haven't recently. That, the double drafting ended up moving a group even faster than it would under normal draft. Admirable of Zwift to try to come up with something, but it ended up not solving the issue.

The speed of the group, IIRC, is determined by power of the first few riders. ZwiftInsider actually did a study on this effect, and it showed that for a 4-person TTT, unless the lead rider really chugs along (pulling at 4.7 w/kg for a group of four where each of the four is capable of doing 4.0 w/kg for the entire duration), it would be better for the four to just bunch it. Apparently, what the sticky draft does is to randomly "shoot" a rider to the front at a speed higher than the previous cruising speed, and this is what gets everyone faster. Salient findings below

Quote:
Test Parameters
All of the test riders were set to 183cm height, 75kg weight, and rode Zwift Carbon bikes with 32mm Zwift wheels.
Interesting side-note: Zwift’s draft effect actually takes rider height and weight into account – similar to outdoors! So a taller rider will create a stronger draft than a shorter rider, and a heavier rider a stronger draft than a light one. Zwift computes an estimate of a rider’s frontal area and uses this to compute the wind resistance they encounter, as well as the draft “wake” they produce.
Test Methodology
Tests were done in “Meetup-Only View” on Watopia’s Tempus Fugit route because it’s the flattest on Zwift, and it has a timed section (Fuego Flats Reverse, 4.4 miles long) which could be used to measure the speeds of each test formation.
All of the tests were done with four riders. Because I ran out of ANT sticks and computers!


Tests and Results
Test 1

All riders @ 300W
Segment time 10:14.8
Speed: 41.34 kph (25.64 mph)

Notes:

All four riders continually “churned” on the front, alternating between poking their nose into the wind, then getting slowed so another rider could come around to the front. This is what you typically see at the front of a non-TT Zwift race.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Test 3

Next, I tried to guess what wattage the lead rider would need to hold in order to beat the time set by the churning group of 300W monsters from test 1. I settled on 320 watts – here are the results:

Rider 1 @ 320W, Rider 2 @244W, Rider 3 @ 225W, Rider 4 @ 209W
Segment time: 10:22.4
Speed: 39.83 kph (25.33 mph)

Notes:

Riders received power savings of 24%, 30%, and 35% (2nd, 3rd, and 4th rider respectively). This lines up with the power savings seen in other tests.
In a TTT situation with all riders taking equal pulls on the front at these wattages, each rider would average 250W.
This group didn’t quite beat the 300W churn, but it was close.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Test 4

This time around I wanted to make sure we beat the 300W churn group. So I bumped the lead rider up to 350W:

Rider 1 @ 350W, Rider 2 @270W, Rider 3 @ 244W, Rider 4 @ 235W
Segment time: 10:01.2
Speed: 42.28 kph (26.23 mph)

Notes:

Riders received power savings of 23%, 30%, and 33% (2nd, 3rd, and 4th rider respectively). This lines up with the power savings seen in other tests.
In a TTT situation with all riders taking equal pulls on the front at these wattages, each rider would average 275W. This is crucial to understand: that even with Zwift’s “speed churning” from test 1, the four riders in this test significantly beat test 1’s time by riding efficiently in single file formation.

jaretj wrote:
I'm quicker in reality than on zwift.
Probably because I'm smaller and have lower drag than what Zwift predicts.

Road bike, TT bike, or both?

With a CdA of ~0.205, my flat-land speed IRL is faster than my flat-land speed on Zwift, even on really crap IRL pavement.

BergHugi wrote:
echappist wrote:
However, this still does not account for the insanely low CdA conferred by riding in a group of 10+, where the first few riders generate comparable power. IRL, a solo rider doing 330 W (at 70 kg) will pull away from a group where the leader pulls at 260 W (at 70 kg). On Zwift, if a group is driven by five riders doing 260 W (at 70 kg), that group will reel back the solo rider (I've been there on both sides of things).

I have the same impression.

How does the multi body simulation of Zwift work? How is the calculation work distributed between server an clients? Anyone here who knows the simulation techniques of such video games?

I suppose that the clients do solve the „local“ equation of motion. In order to get the interaction with others, the clients get every time step a list of riders in the neighborhood. Depending of the number of neighbors the client can calculate something like the lokal air density, i.e. in a group everyone cycles in a „cloud“ of low air density. But inside this cloud every one his individual cda, mass, location, speed, gradient etc.

That's way above my understanding and pay grade.

Given the massive computing demands, perhaps this really is the best that we could expect.
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Re: Zwift vs reality [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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At the opposite end of the spectrum (6’3, 93kg) I’m also quicker in real life.
Not perhaps on flats/downhill, but certainly on climbs - for any given gradient I’m significantly slower on zwift.
Also, when riding with my wife on zwift, I have to push approx 100w more just to sit in with her. In real life it’s closer to 50w.
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Re: Zwift vs reality [Karl] [ In reply to ]
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I think Zwift is pretty close to IRL riding - once I get out of the neighborhood and over the highway and through the lights and onto training roads where I can press it 95% of the time. All that transitional/coasting/stop-start riding drags outdoor averages down.

A few Zwift rides and my mileage stays mostly realistic. If I do a lot of rides on Zwift (esp group rides) my mileage/time for that week will start to get a little unrealistic - and since I like looking at miles week over week I will try to keep it in check by doing outdoor MTB rides or Alpe du Zwift to keep it in check.
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Re: Zwift vs reality [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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jaretj wrote:
I'm quicker in reality than on zwift.

Probably because I'm smaller and have lower drag than what Zwift predicts.

Just my n=1 but I am 186cm and 83kg and it is a solid 30-40 extra watts for me to average 40 kph on Zwift than in real life (assuming the road is flat).

I’ve found climbing pretty accurate, though. I’ve done both the big mountains in real life and my times are similar on similar watts. Decending is silly in Zwift.

Overall, personally, Rouvy is more accurate.

Dan Mayberry
Amateur a lot of things, professional a few things.
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Re: Zwift vs reality [Karl] [ In reply to ]
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Zwift is a video game: its not the real world I don't think you can really compare them at all.

I love Zwift and spent 100's of hours a year in it, but its in no way shape or form real racing.

2024: Bevoman, Galveston, Alcatraz, Marble Falls, Santa Cruz
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Re: Zwift vs reality [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
shoki wrote:
I don’t think the wattage is close.
For example I finished a 2 hr ride with an avg of 216 watts, in the charts others around and top of me we’re only 3 or 4 above 200 other around 160, one even 127! Have to say I only have the Numbers from my vector2s.
Seems weird to me but as long as I get a ride in I couldn’t care less.


W/kg
You just see the Watts in the results and per kg doesn’t matter afaik in that case. Little difference for sure but that much doesn’t make sense to me

-shoki
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Re: Zwift vs reality [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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echappist wrote:
gregf83 wrote:
echappist wrote:
zedzded wrote:


And people say the average speed on Zwift is unrealistic. How often do you get to ride completely flat roads, with perfect tarmac and zero wind. When you do you'll average similar to Zwift.


For solo riding, this is largely true

However, this still does not account for the insanely low CdA conferred by riding in a group of 10+, where the first few riders generate comparable power. IRL, a solo rider doing 330 W (at 70 kg) will pull away from a group where the leader pulls at 260 W (at 70 kg). On Zwift, if a group is driven by five riders doing 260 W (at 70 kg), that group will reel back the solo rider (I've been there on both sides of things).


Have you noticed a difference in the races that have full draft mode? Presumably the riders 'sitting in' need to generate less power so the average for the group is lower but it's not clear if the speed of the group is determined by the average power of the group or the lead rider.


I haven't recently. That, the double drafting ended up moving a group even faster than it would under normal draft. Admirable of Zwift to try to come up with something, but it ended up not solving the issue.

The speed of the group, IIRC, is determined by power of the first few riders. ZwiftInsider actually did a study on this effect, and it showed that for a 4-person TTT, unless the lead rider really chugs along (pulling at 4.7 w/kg for a group of four where each of the four is capable of doing 4.0 w/kg for the entire duration), it would be better for the four to just bunch it. Apparently, what the sticky draft does is to randomly "shoot" a rider to the front at a speed higher than the previous cruising speed, and this is what gets everyone faster. Salient findings below

Quote:

Test Parameters
All of the test riders were set to 183cm height, 75kg weight, and rode Zwift Carbon bikes with 32mm Zwift wheels.
Interesting side-note: Zwift’s draft effect actually takes rider height and weight into account – similar to outdoors! So a taller rider will create a stronger draft than a shorter rider, and a heavier rider a stronger draft than a light one. Zwift computes an estimate of a rider’s frontal area and uses this to compute the wind resistance they encounter, as well as the draft “wake” they produce.
Test Methodology
Tests were done in “Meetup-Only View” on Watopia’s Tempus Fugit route because it’s the flattest on Zwift, and it has a timed section (Fuego Flats Reverse, 4.4 miles long) which could be used to measure the speeds of each test formation.
All of the tests were done with four riders. Because I ran out of ANT sticks and computers!


Tests and Results
Test 1

All riders @ 300W
Segment time 10:14.8
Speed: 41.34 kph (25.64 mph)

Notes:

All four riders continually “churned” on the front, alternating between poking their nose into the wind, then getting slowed so another rider could come around to the front. This is what you typically see at the front of a non-TT Zwift race.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Test 3

Next, I tried to guess what wattage the lead rider would need to hold in order to beat the time set by the churning group of 300W monsters from test 1. I settled on 320 watts – here are the results:

Rider 1 @ 320W, Rider 2 @244W, Rider 3 @ 225W, Rider 4 @ 209W
Segment time: 10:22.4
Speed: 39.83 kph (25.33 mph)

Notes:

Riders received power savings of 24%, 30%, and 35% (2nd, 3rd, and 4th rider respectively). This lines up with the power savings seen in other tests.
In a TTT situation with all riders taking equal pulls on the front at these wattages, each rider would average 250W.
This group didn’t quite beat the 300W churn, but it was close.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Test 4

This time around I wanted to make sure we beat the 300W churn group. So I bumped the lead rider up to 350W:

Rider 1 @ 350W, Rider 2 @270W, Rider 3 @ 244W, Rider 4 @ 235W
Segment time: 10:01.2
Speed: 42.28 kph (26.23 mph)

Notes:

Riders received power savings of 23%, 30%, and 33% (2nd, 3rd, and 4th rider respectively). This lines up with the power savings seen in other tests.
In a TTT situation with all riders taking equal pulls on the front at these wattages, each rider would average 275W. This is crucial to understand: that even with Zwift’s “speed churning” from test 1, the four riders in this test significantly beat test 1’s time by riding efficiently in single file formation.


jaretj wrote:
I'm quicker in reality than on zwift.
Probably because I'm smaller and have lower drag than what Zwift predicts.


Road bike, TT bike, or both?

With a CdA of ~0.205, my flat-land speed IRL is faster than my flat-land speed on Zwift, even on really crap IRL pavement.

BergHugi wrote:
echappist wrote:
However, this still does not account for the insanely low CdA conferred by riding in a group of 10+, where the first few riders generate comparable power. IRL, a solo rider doing 330 W (at 70 kg) will pull away from a group where the leader pulls at 260 W (at 70 kg). On Zwift, if a group is driven by five riders doing 260 W (at 70 kg), that group will reel back the solo rider (I've been there on both sides of things).

I have the same impression.

How does the multi body simulation of Zwift work? How is the calculation work distributed between server an clients? Anyone here who knows the simulation techniques of such video games?

I suppose that the clients do solve the „local“ equation of motion. In order to get the interaction with others, the clients get every time step a list of riders in the neighborhood. Depending of the number of neighbors the client can calculate something like the lokal air density, i.e. in a group everyone cycles in a „cloud“ of low air density. But inside this cloud every one his individual cda, mass, location, speed, gradient etc.


That's way above my understanding and pay grade.

Given the massive computing demands, perhaps this really is the best that we could expect.


I think it's probably the best we can expect. The issue is for larger groups I don't think they can compute well in real time the power of the lead 4 riders for determining group speed. It's gotta be tough to do.

Today, there were some power meter cheats headed up Volcano. They were going only 2w/kg but going up the volcano at like 25mph. With the symbol for a "real" power meter. So, likely over 800 w. Eye roll. People disagree with me on this one, but I am paying for a "reasonable" level of realism. If folks have their stuff setup THAT badly I think they should at least make them invisible in the worlds until the issue is resolved.
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Re: Zwift vs reality [Karl] [ In reply to ]
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I ride a Tron bike through a volcano all the time in real life.


But seriously, why even worry about it? Just do the training and enjoy.
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