Zipp 404 vs. CH Aero cover, need advice

Jun 24, 05 9:46

Post #1 of 18 (3689 views)

I have a set of Zipp 404 clinchers (please, let's not discuss the tubular vs. clincher thing). I am going to buy a RENN disc at some point in the future (probably next season). However, this season I was wondering if there was any advantage in buying a CH Aero cover since they are so inexpensive. Here is the setup and my question...

Race scenario- Olympic and 1/2 IM races this summer. Flat terrain for the most part (I am in North Texas as are the races I have scheduled). Mild to moderate wind (10-25 mph) typically not crosswinds due to the layout of most of the race courses and the predictable south wind.

Option A- Use my Zipp 404 clinchers (front and rear). Total weight- 1685 gr.

Option B- Use my Zipp 404 clincher on the front and my Bontrager Race Lite w/ a CH Aero cover on the rear. Total weight- 2257 gr.

Question- Is the aerodynamic advantage of the wheel cover worth the additonal weight (572 gr = 1.26 lbs) over a 40k distance or even a 56 mile distance??

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"Texas is a state of mind. Texas is an obsession. Above all, Texas is a nation in every sense of the word" - John Steinbeck

Re: Zipp 404 vs. CH Aero cover, need advice [lonestar] [ In reply to ]

Jun 24, 05 10:22

Post #2 of 18 (3671 views)

Bump. Somebody out there has got to have an opinion on this.

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"Texas is a state of mind. Texas is an obsession. Above all, Texas is a nation in every sense of the word" - John Steinbeck

Re: Zipp 404 vs. CH Aero cover, need advice [lonestar] [ In reply to ]

Jun 24, 05 10:38

Post #3 of 18 (3655 views)

Here's my WAG for ya:

I don't think there will be a significant appreciable difference in speed for a disk (or equivalent wheel/cover) over the 404 rear. Yer probably talking a handful of seconds for 40k. For me, that's not "significant" or "appreciable", when I already own a 404, and considering whether dropping $400-650 on a disk makes any sense. For me, it doesn't. (I don't have a regular wheel to throw an aero cover onto, otherwise, I might consider it, just for shits and grins) Disks are the fastest rear wheel you can get, but how much faster than an already good aero rear wheel is subject to much debate.

The weight has nothing to do with it (or so I've been brainwashed into believing via posting here. "Here, try the Kool-Aid.") Short of rolling with a manhole cover as your disk that is. ;-)

Hey - the CH Aero cover is only $60. Why not try it, and report back to us if you think it was faster or not? I've wasted more than $60 on much less worthwhile stuff.

float , hammer , and jog

Re: Zipp 404 vs. CH Aero cover, need advice [lonestar] [ In reply to ]

Jun 24, 05 10:38

Post #4 of 18 (3654 views)

In a word, Yes! Aerodynamics well all most always be more important then weight.

Goggle a search on wheel aerodynamics and weight. There is an article out there I just could not find it. I think Kraig Willet did it on Bike tech review.

Dan�

Re: Zipp 404 vs. CH Aero cover, need advice [bikedude] [ In reply to ]

Jun 24, 05 10:44

Post #5 of 18 (3646 views)

Thanks, Murphy and bikedude! Appreciate the response. I will let you know the results if I get one.

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"Texas is a state of mind. Texas is an obsession. Above all, Texas is a nation in every sense of the word" - John Steinbeck

Re: Zipp 404 vs. CH Aero cover, need advice [lonestar] [ In reply to ]

Jun 24, 05 10:59

Post #6 of 18 (3628 views)

A disc is a disc is a disc. From an aero point of view they all perform about the same. Coolness and weight with the Zipp are another thing but how do you beat that kind of an aero improvement for sixty bucks. Kraig Willet tested a CH Aero cover in a wind tunnel agfainst a Zipp disc. The results will surprise many people and are available on his pay site. It's cost a few dollars but you get a bunch of other tests also, so it's well worth it.

http://www.biketechreview.com/

Weight is realtively insignifiant compared to aero. Unless you're racing up the Alps against Lance the amount between the two wheels sets is really not that much of an issue

Re: Zipp 404 vs. CH Aero cover, need advice [lonestar] [ In reply to ]

Jun 24, 05 11:16

Post #7 of 18 (3611 views)

Cerveoguy provided this in an earlier CH Aero discussion. Helpful.

http://home.hia.no/~stephens/aero.htm

I ordered my CH Aero the other day. Renn next year maybe.

Post deleted by Administrator [ In reply to ]

Martin C

Jun 24, 05 11:18

Post #8 of 18 (3604 views)

Re: Zipp 404 vs. CH Aero cover, need advice [cerveloguy] [ In reply to ]

Jun 24, 05 12:37

Post #9 of 18 (3564 views)

I did the ultracote disc cover on the rear wheel. Took me an hour or two, cost me $15 bucks. Works great after i finally got the guts to really iron the wrinkles out. Caught a significant tailwind the other day and was doing 30 mph like it was nothing, held it for 5 miles. I was getting a significant "push ' off the rear wheel. Note the wind was not directly behind me.

Jim

**Note above poster works for a retailer selling bikes and related gear*

Re: Zipp 404 vs. CH Aero cover, need advice [lonestar] [ In reply to ]

Jun 24, 05 13:48

Post #10 of 18 (3520 views)

Is aero benefit that great?

Yes...assuming everything else is the same.

But, it's not.

The Zipp is a MUCH MUCH better wheel. Use that.

Aero isn't everything.

Post deleted by Administrator [ In reply to ]

Martin C

Jun 24, 05 15:39

Post #11 of 18 (3460 views)

Last edited by: LarryCalifornia: Jun 24, 05 15:40

Re: Zipp 404 vs. CH Aero cover, need advice [LarryCalifornia] [ In reply to ]

Jun 24, 05 15:50

Post #12 of 18 (3448 views)

= Ass - u - me

The point was that aero is only one of several factors to consider when choosing a wheel....

Re: Zipp 404 vs. CH Aero cover, need advice [lonestar] [ In reply to ]

Jun 24, 05 17:07

Post #13 of 18 (3428 views)

The aerodynamics of a Renn and a CH aero cover are basically the same so I don't even see the need to get the Renn other than a 100grams lighter.

Re: Zipp 404 vs. CH Aero cover, need advice [lonestar] [ In reply to ]

Jun 24, 05 17:14

Post #14 of 18 (3424 views)

I tried out the CH Aero Cover. I think it's a good idea, but too flimsy and susceptible to being dented/damaged permanently. I'd go with the Renn, unless you plan on babying that cover in a big way.

Re: Zipp 404 vs. CH Aero cover, need advice [lonestar] [ In reply to ]

Jun 24, 05 17:43

Post #15 of 18 (3414 views)

Weight will make virtually no difference on flat terrain. Don't waste time thinking about it.

Re: Zipp 404 vs. CH Aero cover, need advice [Sojourner] [ In reply to ]

Jun 24, 05 19:11

Post #16 of 18 (3393 views)

"too flimsy and susceptible to being dented/damaged permanently."

I've been using Ch Aero covers for a few seasons now. Bought them used on ebay at half price - $30. Found them to be very durable. They're mounted on a Mavic Gl330 tubular wheel w/dura ace hub and 9 sp dura-ace cassette.

I did the research and decided why spend more. But that just shows how cheap I am, not to mention having a daughter away in college and a son soon following.

Once they graduate I'll probably move up to a Renn.

Re: Zipp 404 vs. CH Aero cover, need advice [lonestar] [ In reply to ]

Jun 24, 05 21:08

Post #17 of 18 (3363 views)

Lonestar,

I haven't tested the Renn I borrowed from my friend yet and I've never used a cover. I have a set of Hed Alps (clincher) and a set of Zipp 909's (tubular).

I do agree that the weight thing is not a big deal.

I also agree that a disc is the fastest wheel and all discs are very similar.

All that being said - the best racing wheels aren't all that much faster over training wheels - maybe a min/hour or so....the front is more important than the rear and the difference between a 404 rear and disc must be very/very small - likely second/hour at most....

No way is an aero cover worth the hassle factor in my opinion - its one extra thing that can go wrong - your front and rear will need different tube set ups if you flat....my friend has a cover and just had a bunch of little issues with it....

You have a very nice set of race wheels - don't buy a cover - don't buy a Renn.

Thats my opinion.

Dave

Re: Zipp 404 vs. CH Aero cover, need advice [LarryCalifornia] [ In reply to ]

Jun 25, 05 1:47

Post #18 of 18 (3346 views)

In Reply To:

You can buy a custom wheel/CH cover from wheelbuilder.com for 350 clams. Get the hub and hoops you want with it. Sounds like a good friggin deal, especially when the FedEx dude gets here.

LC

Why on earth would anyone buy this setup when for $50 more you can have a Renn disk? The cover is a mechanically kludgy solution. It's one thing if you already have a wheel you can use a cover with, another entirely to actually buy a wheel just to do this.

The OP already has a very fast wheel, why are you so worried about the few seconds the cover might save? It might be possible to be slightly faster with the cover if it fits your wheel properly. Then again, maybe not, if you don't get a good seal at the edge of the cover. Personally, I wouldn't bother.

I also find it amusing when people make absolutist, dogmatic statements like "aero is always more important than weight." Try telling that to a pro about to start a tour stage with 16,000 feet of climbing. Or someone about to start the Mt. Washington Hill climb. Try again, it should be "aero is more important than weight in most cases". Always means always; no exceptions--not 'usually', or 'under common circumstances'.

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