Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Your crank based powermeter on your 4-bolt Shimano crankset is inaccurate
Quote | Reply
In an interesting bit of cooperation between a representative of the "gear reviewer" community and the nerdy, techy community, Shane Miller (GP Lama, gplama here) and Keith Wakeham (initial developer of the 4iiii power meter, kwakeham here) have come up with a convincing case that the asymmetric nature of the newer Shimano 4-bolt cranksets wreaks havoc on the accuracy of crank based powermeters using those cranksets.

Both have videos and write-ups on their findings:

The tl;dr of it is that due to the asymmetric nature of the 4-bolt pattern used by Shimano, the forces going through the chainring bolts are, well, asymmetric. This causes inaccuracies most easily seen in steady-state efforts (ERG or outside up steady gradients).

My takeaway: If you're in the market for a crank based powermeter, pick an FSA or Rotor crank, or another cranks that uses the traditional 5-bolt pattern.

Citizen of the world, former drunkard. Resident Traumatic Brain Injury advocate.
Quote Reply
Re: Your crank based powermeter on your 4-bolt Shimano crankset is inaccurate [Richard Blaine] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
My take away- continue saving money with your left only crank PM.
Quote Reply
Re: Your crank based powermeter on your 4-bolt Shimano crankset is inaccurate [elf6c] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
elf6c wrote:
My take away- continue saving money with your left only crank PM.

Yeah, maybe that’s a better one maybe. As long as you know you’re not worse than say 52%-48%

Citizen of the world, former drunkard. Resident Traumatic Brain Injury advocate.
Quote Reply
Re: Your crank based powermeter on your 4-bolt Shimano crankset is inaccurate [Richard Blaine] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Richard Blaine wrote:
elf6c wrote:
My take away- continue saving money with your left only crank PM.


Yeah, maybe that’s a better one maybe. As long as you know you’re not worse than say 52%-48%

Is there an accurate, readily available test for that before you throw down the cash for a dual sided power meter?


Back to the articles, seems like a great chance for some independently funded citizen science. Think "wind tunnel shootout" but with power meters. Shane sort of hints at that at the end of his article, not a lot of existing side by side comparisons.
Quote Reply
Re: Your crank based powermeter on your 4-bolt Shimano crankset is inaccurate [Richard Blaine] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Richard Blaine wrote:

Yeah, maybe that’s a better one maybe. As long as you know you’re not worse than say 52%-48%

Doesn't really matter what the balance is as long as it's stable across your range and levels of fatigue. Now if the balance changes as you increase output for instance then that's an issue to consider.
Quote Reply
Re: Your crank based powermeter on your 4-bolt Shimano crankset is inaccurate [Richard Blaine] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I think it's a well known issue that Shimano PM's aren't accurate even if Shimano won't admit their PM is crap.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Quote Reply
Re: Your crank based powermeter on your 4-bolt Shimano crankset is inaccurate [ALightBreeze] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ALightBreeze wrote:
Richard Blaine wrote:
elf6c wrote:
My take away- continue saving money with your left only crank PM.


Yeah, maybe that’s a better one maybe. As long as you know you’re not worse than say 52%-48%


Is there an accurate, readily available test for that before you throw down the cash for a dual sided power meter?

Uh... I don't know. In my case it's about 4 years of pedal power meter data.

I don't know if the apps that come with the PMs allow you to set your balance ratio, probably as some advanced setting? That way you can test drive a couple of pedals from your LBS and plug the result in the app.

Citizen of the world, former drunkard. Resident Traumatic Brain Injury advocate.
Quote Reply
Re: Your crank based powermeter on your 4-bolt Shimano crankset is inaccurate [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
desert dude wrote:
I think it's a well known issue that Shimano PM's aren't accurate even if Shimano won't admit their PM is crap.

This is not just Shimano PMs though. This is all dual-sided crank based power meters installed on Shimano 4-bolt cranksets. Lama lists 11 different ones in his blog post, all with consistent inaccuracies (if that doesn't make you lol, "consistent inaccuracies", nothing will...)

Citizen of the world, former drunkard. Resident Traumatic Brain Injury advocate.
Quote Reply
Re: Your crank based powermeter on your 4-bolt Shimano crankset is inaccurate [elf6c] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Sure, if you want a power estimator, get a left side only unit.

If you want a power meter, you will need to get a dual side unit.

Obviously budgets differ, but as the price of dual side units continues to decrease, the need to settle for a power estimator also decreases.

Amateur recreational hobbyist cyclist
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
https://vimeo.com/user11846099
Quote Reply
Re: Your crank based powermeter on your 4-bolt Shimano crankset is inaccurate [Richard Blaine] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Richard Blaine wrote:
desert dude wrote:
I think it's a well known issue that Shimano PM's aren't accurate even if Shimano won't admit their PM is crap.


This is not just Shimano PMs though. This is all dual-sided crank based power meters installed on Shimano 4-bolt cranksets. Lama lists 11 different ones in his blog post, all with consistent inaccuracies (if that doesn't make you lol, "consistent inaccuracies", nothing will...)


I believe it is mainly an issue with the latest generation of Shimano cranksets - 9100 and 8000 - which are 4-bolt but, most importantly, are asymmetric designs. I don't think it's the 4-bolt chainring attachment that's the issue. It's the fact that the crank arm is not symmetric. It's offset and sculpted. I am pretty sure GP Lama noted that he didn't see issues with the 9000 and 6800 cranks that were used by PM makers to construct their powermeters previously.


I don't believe the previous generations of Shimano cranks bolted on to, say, SRM's spider containing the strain gauges have any issues.
Quote Reply
Re: Your crank based powermeter on your 4-bolt Shimano crankset is inaccurate [Bdaghisallo] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Bdaghisallo wrote:
Richard Blaine wrote:
desert dude wrote:
I think it's a well known issue that Shimano PM's aren't accurate even if Shimano won't admit their PM is crap.


This is not just Shimano PMs though. This is all dual-sided crank based power meters installed on Shimano 4-bolt cranksets. Lama lists 11 different ones in his blog post, all with consistent inaccuracies (if that doesn't make you lol, "consistent inaccuracies", nothing will...)



I believe it is mainly an issue with the latest generation of Shimano cranksets - 9100 and 8000 - which are 4-bolt but, most importantly, are asymmetric designs. I don't think it's the 4-bolt chainring attachment that's the issue. It's the fact that the crank arm is not symmetric. It's offset and sculpted. I am pretty sure GP Lama noted that he didn't see issues with the 9000 and 6800 cranks that were used by PM makers to construct their powermeters previously.


I don't believe the previous generations of Shimano cranks bolted on to, say, SRM's spider containing the strain gauges have any issues.

Interesting. I now see what he means with "asymmetric". I though he meant he fact that the crankarms aren't distributed evenly, and that that caused the issues, but now I see that the 9100 (and supposedly the 8000 as well) have an "blob" off to the side of the spider centre, under the crank arm, and that's the asymmetry he's referring to. I thought the 9000 and 6800 were still 5-bolt.

So: you're right, it's not the 4-boltedness, it's the fact that the spider looks like it developed a huge cyst.

Citizen of the world, former drunkard. Resident Traumatic Brain Injury advocate.
Quote Reply
Re: Your crank based powermeter on your 4-bolt Shimano crankset is inaccurate [Richard Blaine] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Interesting... I put a R8000 Stages dual sided PM on the bike a few weeks ago and was puzzled by my 52L/48R balance. I'm clearly right leg biased in everything I do physically, it didn't make sense.

Now I know, I can ignore it.

"They know f_ck-all over at Slowtwitch"
- Lionel Sanders
Quote Reply
Re: Your crank based powermeter on your 4-bolt Shimano crankset is inaccurate [refthimos] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
refthimos wrote:
Sure, if you want a power estimator, get a left side only unit.

If you want a power meter, you will need to get a dual side unit.

Obviously budgets differ, but as the price of dual side units continues to decrease, the need to settle for a power estimator also decreases.
Or a PM that combines power like chainring/spider or hub based options
Quote Reply
Re: Your crank based powermeter on your 4-bolt Shimano crankset is inaccurate [Richard Blaine] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Richard Blaine wrote:
Bdaghisallo wrote:
Richard Blaine wrote:
desert dude wrote:
I think it's a well known issue that Shimano PM's aren't accurate even if Shimano won't admit their PM is crap.


This is not just Shimano PMs though. This is all dual-sided crank based power meters installed on Shimano 4-bolt cranksets. Lama lists 11 different ones in his blog post, all with consistent inaccuracies (if that doesn't make you lol, "consistent inaccuracies", nothing will...)



I believe it is mainly an issue with the latest generation of Shimano cranksets - 9100 and 8000 - which are 4-bolt but, most importantly, are asymmetric designs. I don't think it's the 4-bolt chainring attachment that's the issue. It's the fact that the crank arm is not symmetric. It's offset and sculpted. I am pretty sure GP Lama noted that he didn't see issues with the 9000 and 6800 cranks that were used by PM makers to construct their powermeters previously.


I don't believe the previous generations of Shimano cranks bolted on to, say, SRM's spider containing the strain gauges have any issues.


Interesting. I now see what he means with "asymmetric". I though he meant he fact that the crankarms aren't distributed evenly, and that that caused the issues, but now I see that the 9100 (and supposedly the 8000 as well) have an "blob" off to the side of the spider centre, under the crank arm, and that's the asymmetry he's referring to. I thought the 9000 and 6800 were still 5-bolt.

So: you're right, it's not the 4-boltedness, it's the fact that the spider looks like it developed a huge cyst.

The 9100 and 8000 arms are asymmetric too and I am sure that is also contributing. The top half of the right crank arm is shaved/beveled as it merges into the spider.
Quote Reply
Re: Your crank based powermeter on your 4-bolt Shimano crankset is inaccurate [Richard Blaine] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Richard Blaine wrote:
My takeaway: If you're in the market for a crank based powermeter, pick an FSA or Rotor crank, or another cranks that uses the traditional 5-bolt pattern.

Except that FSA has now gone to asymmetrical 4 bolt chainrings as well...

"I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 10, and I don't know why!"
Quote Reply
Re: Your crank based powermeter on your 4-bolt Shimano crankset is inaccurate [Richard Blaine] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Richard Blaine wrote:
In an interesting bit of cooperation between a representative of the "gear reviewer" community and the nerdy, techy community, Shane Miller (GP Lama, gplama here) and Keith Wakeham (initial developer of the 4iiii power meter, kwakeham here) have come up with a convincing case that the asymmetric nature of the newer Shimano 4-bolt cranksets wreaks havoc on the accuracy of crank based powermeters using those cranksets.

Both have videos and write-ups on their findings:

The tl;dr of it is that due to the asymmetric nature of the 4-bolt pattern used by Shimano, the forces going through the chainring bolts are, well, asymmetric. This causes inaccuracies most easily seen in steady-state efforts (ERG or outside up steady gradients).

My takeaway: If you're in the market for a crank based powermeter, pick an FSA or Rotor crank, or another cranks that uses the traditional 5-bolt pattern.

Which is why Pioneer released an update in their V3 power meter that was released this year. They specifically adjusted due to issues found last year. I think they are the only ones who have specifically addressed this issue. Shane Miller has noted specific issues with Stages and Shimano that was also noted by DC Rainmaker. I am not sure what 4iii has done in response to this.
Quote Reply
Re: Your crank based powermeter on your 4-bolt Shimano crankset is inaccurate [Ron_Burgundy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Ron_Burgundy wrote:
Which is why Pioneer released an update in their V3 power meter that was released this year. They specifically adjusted due to issues found last year. I think they are the only ones who have specifically addressed this issue. Shane Miller has noted specific issues with Stages and Shimano that was also noted by DC Rainmaker. I am not sure what 4iii has done in response to this.

The newer Pioneer was part the test pool, two of the newer ones in fact. There's no good news for any of them at this point. See Keith Wakeham's video on why this isn't a simple gauge placement 'fix', or even a firmware updatable fix.

Shane Miller - GPLama
YouTube | Web | Twitter | Instagram | Facebook | Strava
Quote Reply
Re: Your crank based powermeter on your 4-bolt Shimano crankset is inaccurate [gplama] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
gplama wrote:
Ron_Burgundy wrote:
Which is why Pioneer released an update in their V3 power meter that was released this year. They specifically adjusted due to issues found last year. I think they are the only ones who have specifically addressed this issue. Shane Miller has noted specific issues with Stages and Shimano that was also noted by DC Rainmaker. I am not sure what 4iii has done in response to this.


The newer Pioneer was part the test pool, two of the newer ones in fact. There's no good news for any of them at this point. See Keith Wakeham's video on why this isn't a simple gauge placement 'fix', or even a firmware updatable fix.


Interesting, Just read through the articles. I own several Quarq's but just purchased a new DA pioneer for my primary road racing bike. In your opinion is this power discrepancy consistent? Somewhat wishing now I had gone ahead with the SRM. Or could future firmware potentially address this?
Last edited by: Ron_Burgundy: Jul 3, 19 12:54
Quote Reply
Re: Your crank based powermeter on your 4-bolt Shimano crankset is inaccurate [Richard Blaine] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
So how do we explain several rides (>60 minutes) with P2max on 4 bolt DA compared with powertap rear hub and got nearly identical curves (with a relative offset of about <3 watts (>200 watts AP)) with final AP and NP being reflective of scale offset...?

Maybe I need to revisit.
Quote Reply
Re: Your crank based powermeter on your 4-bolt Shimano crankset is inaccurate [Richard Blaine] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I had hopes that this analysis is accurate. It would explain a lot. Ever since my knee surgery, my left (repaired) leg has shown to be stronger than my right on my Stages dual-sided power meter. (I do my FTP testing using the Stages.) Generally, it's between 52/48 and 54/46. Almost all the time. Makes no sense. My right leg is my dominant leg.

On another bike, I have Garmin Vector 2 pedals on an FSA direct mount crankset. Nothing assymetric about that. I just looked back at a good sampling of files from that bike. Left leg stronger, between 52/48 and 54/46. Almost all the time. Total power on back-to-back days is almost identical to what I record on the Stages.

At least in my power files, there's no imbalance or power difference between double-sided Shimano/Stages and my double-sided FSA/Vector. But . . . is there anything to be done about the small imbalance? (Should I even care?)
Quote Reply
Re: Your crank based powermeter on your 4-bolt Shimano crankset is inaccurate [Richard Blaine] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Garmin allows you to adjust the power readings for each pedal. I compared my vector 3s to a P2M, found a percentage offset between them and adjusted the scale factor to match. Only problem there is that my vector isn't consistent when I swap between cranksets/bikes, so all I solved was adding a redundant power meter to my P2M.
Quote Reply
Re: Your crank based powermeter on your 4-bolt Shimano crankset is inaccurate [ktm520] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ktm520 wrote:
So how do we explain several rides (>60 minutes) with P2max on 4 bolt DA compared with powertap rear hub and got nearly identical curves (with a relative offset of about <3 watts (>200 watts AP)) with final AP and NP being reflective of scale offset...?

Maybe I need to revisit.

If I understand correctly it's because you do not have a Shimano crankset. You have a P2max crankset that is compatible with Shimano 4 bolt chainrings. Seems like the chainring design is not the problem, it's the crankset. Hence why your crankset was not listed in the affected "Shimano crankset PMs." Power meters made by Shimano, or made to attach directly to Shimano cranks (Stages, 4iii, Pioneer, etc) are impacted and noted in GPLama's tests. The Quarq DFour was also not listed in the test likely because like your P2max crank, even though it's compatible with Shimano 4 bolt, it's not a Shimano crank.
Quote Reply
Re: Your crank based powermeter on your 4-bolt Shimano crankset is inaccurate [refthimos] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
refthimos wrote:
Sure, if you want a power estimator, get a left side only unit.

If you want a power meter, you will need to get a dual side unit.


Every power meter is a power estimator. There are just different levels of accuracy. None of them directly measure power, and therefore have to estimate using measurements of deflection combined with timing and temperature information, etc.

There are lots of sources of error, of which the difference in force output between right/left leg is one. This thread points out another. Some PMs have trouble with temperature variation.

I have 4 power meters, including one left-only Stages. I can't say that I treat the Stages data differently than any of the others. It seems just fine. The other 3 report left/right and none of them ever indicate significant left/right imbalance. Maybe some people experience the anecdotal wide fluctuation based on fatique or force output. I don't seem to.
Last edited by: trail: Jul 3, 19 16:23
Quote Reply
Re: Your crank based powermeter on your 4-bolt Shimano crankset is inaccurate [Ron_Burgundy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Ron_Burgundy wrote:
In your opinion is this power discrepancy consistent?


The data is consistent for the tests I've done. But it's not consistent across all riding styles/terrain/use cases, meaning it can't be fixed with a slope or scaling change. Keith discusses this in his video near the end. The solution is really really hard.

I've had a company show me their right crank is accurate by performing a one leg steady-state drill (non ERG) and having the data line up with the right pedal. Great in theory.

Now I'm no engineer... I've had some brilliant engineers explain this issue well enough for me to understand the above test is both amusing and scary at the same time. If they didn't take into account the coupling effect, they haven't addressed it at all. Alarming.

Shane Miller - GPLama
YouTube | Web | Twitter | Instagram | Facebook | Strava
Last edited by: gplama: Jul 3, 19 19:51
Quote Reply
Re: Your crank based powermeter on your 4-bolt Shimano crankset is inaccurate [gplama] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
gplama wrote:
Ron_Burgundy wrote:
In your opinion is this power discrepancy consistent?


The data is consistent for the tests I've done. But it's not consistent across all riding styles/terrain/use cases, meaning it can be fixed with a slope or scaling change. Keith discusses this in his video near the end. The solution is really really hard.

I've had a company show me their right crank is accurate by performing a one leg steady-state drill (non ERG) and having the data line up with the right pedal. Great in theory.

Now I'm no engineer... I've had some brilliant engineers explain this issue well enough for me to understand the above test is both amusing and scary at the same time. If they didn't take into account the coupling effect, they haven't addressed it at all. Alarming.

Shane, can I just thank you for 1) having such an awesome Youtube channel and 2) running comprehensive tests like this....you really provide such a massive wealth of knowledge to this industry.
These videos made me very happy that I had install issues with my new DA crank based power meter on my tri bike (Pioneer....left crank arm did not have enough clearance) and needed to swap to the Favero pedal based system!
Quote Reply

Prev Next