Yet another Pain Cave advice thread. Treadmill? Tonal?

Jan 1, 21 7:37

Post #1 of 49 (4592 views)

We’re moving, and to our surprise the folks buying our house love our home gym and want most of it to stay (including power cage, barbells, plates, dumb bell set/rack, Peloton Bike and Tread+, etc.), so I am planning the new pain cave/ home gym for our new home and looking for some advice. It’s also fun to design a new pain cave/ home gym!

Already own:
Wahoo Kickr/ Headwind/ Desk
Dedicated Zwift PC with good graphics card
Vasa SwimErg with power meter
TRX

My Bikes:
Tri—Cervelo P3X w/ Enve 7.8s
Road—BMC Roadmachine One w/ Enve 3.4ARs
Commuter—Specialized Diverge (I am a proud bike commuter—looking forward to when we can start commuting again)

Planned Purchase/ Advice Please:
- Peloton Bike+ (Non-negotiable since my wife uses this. I must admit, I also like their programming and use on occasion)
- Woodway 4front vs. Peloton Tread+: My wife and I are stuck on slat belt. We have enjoyed the Peloton, and have not noticed the “broken tile” feel DC rainmaker describes. If the Woodway, I can cast the Peloton classes (also a must for my wife) on an iPad/TV. I am partial to buying the Woodway for its known quality/ durability. Has anyone run on both Woodway and Peloton Tread+ or know about both platforms, and are there any substantial differences by feel or mechanical build?
- Tonal vs Free weights (as before: cage, bars, plates, dumbbells, etc) vs other? My objective is overall balanced body strength/ fitness and also to help prevent injury while tri training. Strength training is also good for older guys like me. Been generally doing light-to-moderate core, squats, dead lifts, lats, shoulders/arms, etc. Been reading some highly favorable reviews of Tonal—what do STers know about this platform and do you recommend?
- Any other equipment that should be considered? Cost, within reason, is not much of an issue.

Happy new year and thanks in advance!

Re: Yet another Pain Cave advice thread. Treadmill? Tonal? [Jae K] [ In reply to ]

Jan 1, 21 9:12

Post #2 of 49 (4542 views)

I’d be careful about selling your home gym with your home...gym stuff still backordered and hard to come by!

"The person on top of the mountain didn't fall there." - unkown

also rule 5

Re: Yet another Pain Cave advice thread. Treadmill? Tonal? [Jae K] [ In reply to ]

Jan 1, 21 10:04

Post #3 of 49 (4500 views)

We have a bike +, horizon 7.8AT tread, Tonal and hydrow. We demo’d the tread+ and tread and the Peloton tread+ is not Woodway enough for us to justify extra cost and it’s god awful loud at faster speeds. Will probably get a tread in March for the ecosystem. I love the programs and function of the Tonal. For me it replaced dumbbells and kettlebells during COVID and personal trainer at gym pre-Covid. Love, love, love the tonal for programming, form feedback, motivation of chasing strength score improvements. I move more weight(by a lot) in a tonal session in less time than I ever did with a trainer at the gym and it’s the first program(s) I’ve stuck with except for paying the personal trainer for accountability.

Re: Yet another Pain Cave advice thread. Treadmill? Tonal? [boobooaboo] [ In reply to ]

Jan 1, 21 10:17

Post #4 of 49 (4485 views)

Really solid advice and I wish I could! But was needed for the buyers to be motivated—I think they had the same thought as you did.
I called some company reps (eg. Woodway, Peloton), and the wait times are currently ~5-6 weeks, which is not bad. I think if I make my selections in advance, we can have equipment delivered in a timely fashion soon after closing on a new home, which is still realistically months away.

It’s a major move, and will wreak havoc on my training. I am signed up for IM Arizona 140.6, and hoping the world will be a different place by the late-Fall timeframe—fingers crossed!

Re: Yet another Pain Cave advice thread. Treadmill? Tonal? [xterratri] [ In reply to ]

Jan 1, 21 11:00

Post #5 of 49 (4460 views)

Wow, thanks for sharing your experience!
So I gather you think Woodway is superior to Tread+, and in what ways is the experience better for you?
Regarding your thoughts about Tonal—my one hesitation is that I have never been a fan of cable systems, but I am guessing that the resistance delivery via the electromagnetic mechanism in Tonal has a different “feel”? If so, how would you describe?
Thanks again!

Re: Yet another Pain Cave advice thread. Treadmill? Tonal? [Jae K] [ In reply to ]

Jan 1, 21 11:11

Post #6 of 49 (4445 views)

The electromagnetic resistance is very different. I can do sets of lateral raises with 8 pound dumbbells but struggle to more than 2-3 reps with good form with tonal at 5 pound setting. The resistance can change to match the power curve for the move and momentum can be canceled out to keep you working. The eccentric and smart flex modes do some interesting things.

Re: Yet another Pain Cave advice thread. Treadmill? Tonal? [xterratri] [ In reply to ]

Jan 1, 21 12:40

Post #7 of 49 (4405 views)

Curious about the tonal...
Do you do squats or deadlift in it?

What's the relative difficulty there?

Re: Yet another Pain Cave advice thread. Treadmill? Tonal? [dcohen24] [ In reply to ]

Jan 1, 21 12:49

Post #8 of 49 (4392 views)

Holy hell that thing is 3 grand plus 50 a month.

"The person on top of the mountain didn't fall there." - unkown

also rule 5

Re: Yet another Pain Cave advice thread. Treadmill? Tonal? [Jae K] [ In reply to ]

Jan 1, 21 14:36

Post #9 of 49 (4342 views)

not sure where you live but you might want to place an order for the peloton(s) ASAP. depending on where you live, it is taking months for them to fulfill orders.

Re: Yet another Pain Cave advice thread. Treadmill? Tonal? [boobooaboo] [ In reply to ]

Jan 1, 21 14:37

Post #10 of 49 (4341 views)

Personal training was $2700 for 6 months on top of $70/month gym fee. So bigger upfront cost but definitely cheaper over time and it’s a huge time savings not needing to go anywhere

Re: Yet another Pain Cave advice thread. Treadmill? Tonal? [dcohen24] [ In reply to ]

Jan 1, 21 14:43

Post #11 of 49 (4330 views)

Oh god. Unfortunately yes you both squat and deadlift. Let me list my nemesis: goblet squats and neutral grip deadlift aren’t bad but then there is single leg RDL and almost as bad reverse lunges. I have heard about the Bulgarian split squats but haven’t done them yet.
Disclaimer: I’ve got a knee that is bone on bone after 3 ACL reconstructions so the single leg stuff is challenging. Important but is hard for me.

There are two triathlon specific programs with Mark Allen as guess coach plus two called “better bike and tread.” Personally, I’m still doing the beginner programs. They differ in difficultly based on more compound movements etc not the weight

Re: Yet another Pain Cave advice thread. Treadmill? Tonal? [xterratri] [ In reply to ]

Jan 1, 21 14:47

Post #12 of 49 (4330 views)

Sure...how does maintenance work on one of these things, are they well built? I have never had a personal trainer, or gone to a $70/month gym. So if that’s the bills, then it makes sense. My gym bill is $25 a month which includes my pool. So, a tonal is the cost of 10 years of gym membership, plus each month is doubly expensive for me. To each their own!

Edit: mostly it is crazy to me that these companies can charge 50$ a month just to basically use the device, and people are willing to pay it.

"The person on top of the mountain didn't fall there." - unkown

also rule 5

Last edited by: boobooaboo: Jan 1, 21 14:48

Re: Yet another Pain Cave advice thread. Treadmill? Tonal? [xterratri] [ In reply to ]

Jan 1, 21 15:42

Post #13 of 49 (4295 views)

Thanks xterratri!
On your positive feedback, I reached out to Tonal. Such nice customer service! They scheduled a real-time Zoom meeting with a sales specialist in front of a Tonal and demoing on a real unit while answering questions. He also highlighted the Mark Allen series! Very cool.
I am leaning quite heavily towards the Tonal over free-weights now.

Re: Yet another Pain Cave advice thread. Treadmill? Tonal? [lhmd21] [ In reply to ]

Jan 1, 21 15:50

Post #14 of 49 (4287 views)

lhmd21 wrote:

not sure where you live but you might want to place an order for the peloton(s) ASAP. depending on where you live, it is taking months for them to fulfill orders.

.
Terrific advice. I am planning to purchase most of my Pain Cave equipment months in advance for the seller to hold and ship when I close on a new home.

Re: Yet another Pain Cave advice thread. Treadmill? Tonal? [Jae K] [ In reply to ]

Jan 1, 21 17:02

Post #15 of 49 (4250 views)

it looks like the Bike+ is scheduling into March for delivery right now

Re: Yet another Pain Cave advice thread. Treadmill? Tonal? [boobooaboo] [ In reply to ]

Jan 1, 21 17:19

Post #16 of 49 (4242 views)

boobooaboo wrote:

Sure...how does maintenance work on one of these things, are they well built? I have never had a personal trainer, or gone to a $70/month gym. So if that’s the bills, then it makes sense. My gym bill is $25 a month which includes my pool. So, a tonal is the cost of 10 years of gym membership, plus each month is doubly expensive for me. To each their own!

Edit: mostly it is crazy to me that these companies can charge 50$ a month just to basically use the device, and people are willing to pay it.

Where do you live and what gym are you a member of where you get $25 a month with a real , functional pool!??

During COVID time, a 45 min swim session at the community pool here costs $15 alone!

Re: Yet another Pain Cave advice thread. Treadmill? Tonal? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]

Jan 1, 21 18:13

Post #17 of 49 (4206 views)

lightheir wrote:

boobooaboo wrote:

Sure...how does maintenance work on one of these things, are they well built? I have never had a personal trainer, or gone to a $70/month gym. So if that’s the bills, then it makes sense. My gym bill is $25 a month which includes my pool. So, a tonal is the cost of 10 years of gym membership, plus each month is doubly expensive for me. To each their own!

Edit: mostly it is crazy to me that these companies can charge 50$ a month just to basically use the device, and people are willing to pay it.

Where do you live and what gym are you a member of where you get $25 a month with a real , functional pool!??

During COVID time, a 45 min swim session at the community pool here costs $15 alone!

I have access to what’s called “Active and Fit” through my employer. Basically gets me access to any big box gym, some YMCA’s, etc. It’s $25 a month. I’m living in the Dallas area, and all gyms, pools, etc are open. I go to a variety of LA Fitnesses in my area, no sign up needed. Today was the busiest day in a long while actually, since they opened at 8 instead of 5 for the holiday. Most days I have my own lane, or even the whole pool. Usually there’s only 2 of us max in the earlier morning. However, I don’t lift there, the gym itself is terrible. I go to a nearby anytime fitness to lift - again, I’m able to go at odd times and often have it to myself, or share with 1-3 other people, and we all stay in our own areas if that’s the case. I claim the purple turf, grunty takes the squat rack, and broseph McGee likes the machines and cardio.

"The person on top of the mountain didn't fall there." - unkown

also rule 5

Re: Yet another Pain Cave advice thread. Treadmill? Tonal? [boobooaboo] [ In reply to ]

Jan 1, 21 18:16

Post #18 of 49 (4200 views)

I probably wouldn't even have a vasa erg if I had your gym membership!

Seriously that is by far the best gym deal I have ever heard of.

Last edited by: lightheir: Jan 1, 21 18:17

Re: Yet another Pain Cave advice thread. Treadmill? Tonal? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]

Jan 1, 21 18:28

Post #19 of 49 (4191 views)

https://www.activeandfitdirect.com/

Maybe you can snag it! I have to say, even including pre-covid, this is one of the best gym setups I’ve had. Everything is really close, not at all crowded (important always, but even more so in covid times). Only two pieces of equipment are missing that I wish I could find: ski erg and the jacobs ladder.

"The person on top of the mountain didn't fall there." - unkown

also rule 5

Re: Yet another Pain Cave advice thread. Treadmill? Tonal? [Jae K] [ In reply to ]

Jan 2, 21 6:31

Post #20 of 49 (4095 views)

I've had a Tonal for a few months and I love it, but there are a few things to watch for. The installation is handled by a 3rd party (XPO). While I had no problems with communication and scheduling in the SF Bay area, on Reddit you can find multiple reports of installation delays and poor communication. Tonal offers financing through another 3rd party - again lots of reports of issues with that. And of course it take a few months to get one.

So, if you can live with the installation process, it is pretty amazing.

My wife, the triathlete in the house, did the Mark Allen series and liked it.

Beyond the pure strength work, there are several good mobility routines available.

Re: Yet another Pain Cave advice thread. Treadmill? Tonal? [Jae K] [ In reply to ]

Jan 2, 21 6:39

Post #21 of 49 (4080 views)

Treadmill plus regular weights. You also don't need a Woodway. I have one. It is overrated. I can see the value of tonal if you do not have a place for weights nor want to go to gym

Re: Yet another Pain Cave advice thread. Treadmill? Tonal? [ThomD] [ In reply to ]

Jan 2, 21 12:47

Post #22 of 49 (3984 views)

ThomD wrote:

I've had a Tonal for a few months and I love it, but there are a few things to watch for. The installation is handled by a 3rd party (XPO). While I had no problems with communication and scheduling in the SF Bay area, on Reddit you can find multiple reports of installation delays and poor communication. Tonal offers financing through another 3rd party - again lots of reports of issues with that. And of course it take a few months to get one.

So, if you can live with the installation process, it is pretty amazing.

My wife, the triathlete in the house, did the Mark Allen series and liked it.

Beyond the pure strength work, there are several good mobility routines available.

Thank you Thom! And great advice about staying on top of the 3rd party installation.
May I trouble you for any details about why you and your wife like the Tonal, in your opinion?
Do you think movement with the electromagnetic resistance feels “natural”?
Thanks again!

Re: Yet another Pain Cave advice thread. Treadmill? Tonal? [Jae K] [ In reply to ]

Jan 2, 21 13:07

Post #23 of 49 (3970 views)

i don't want to be a stalker on this, but i would point out the horizon product review, and the associated discount. it's always the case that i find folks who participate here bigly, but are naive to what's on the front page, hence my mention of it. we don't make a vig out of this, so it's no sweat to use which treadmill you buy.

i have a woodway, and a trueform and a horizon. the woodway and the trueform have segmented belts. i love running on the woodway. but i don't feel a big drop-off running on the horizon, to be honest. if money just meant nothing, yeah, i'd buy the woodway. but if you can think of something useful you might do with the extra $10k, then buy the horizon.

fwiw, where i REALLY feel a BIG difference in performance is in the smart bike versus smart trainer. the difference between the woodway and the horizon is 20 percent, in terms of, you spend 5x the money and you get 20% extra benefit out of the woodway. but the kickr bike? over the kickr? or for that matter the NEO smart bike over the NEO 2T? that's like a 40% upgrade in feel and feature. so, if you starting a pain cave from scratch, and you don't mind a little bit of a duplication (because you already have a smart trainer) i would invest in a smart bike.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Re: Yet another Pain Cave advice thread. Treadmill? Tonal? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Jan 2, 21 13:27

Post #24 of 49 (3956 views)

devashish_paul wrote:

Treadmill plus regular weights. You also don't need a Woodway. I have one. It is overrated. I can see the value of tonal if you do not have a place for weights nor want to go to gym

Thanks Dev!
I can see what you are saying regarding the treadmill—probably negligible difference for most anatomically healthy runners. Having previously owned a number of conventional treadmills, I am convinced rubberized slats have superior shock-absorbing characteristics than traditional belts for my arthritic knees. Perhaps more important, my wife loves the feel of running on the Peloton Tread+. Our next treadmill will be with slats, but my main conundrum is whether to replace with another Tread+ (~$4295) or upgrade to Woodway 4front (~$14K). I also briefly considered TechnoGym Skillrun, but was concerned by reports of low reliability.

I have plenty of space and prefer to do my weight training at home for convenience and time economy, even after the pandemic. Though still contemplating the components of that home gym!
Many thanks!

Re: Yet another Pain Cave advice thread. Treadmill? Tonal? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Jan 2, 21 13:58

Post #25 of 49 (3943 views)

Slowman wrote:

i don't want to be a stalker on this, but i would point out the horizon product review, and the associated discount. it's always the case that i find folks who participate here bigly, but are naive to what's on the front page, hence my mention of it. we don't make a vig out of this, so it's no sweat to use which treadmill you buy.

i have a woodway, and a trueform and a horizon. the woodway and the trueform have segmented belts. i love running on the woodway. but i don't feel a big drop-off running on the horizon, to be honest. if money just meant nothing, yeah, i'd buy the woodway. but if you can think of something useful you might do with the extra $10k, then buy the horizon.

fwiw, where i REALLY feel a BIG difference in performance is in the smart bike versus smart trainer. the difference between the woodway and the horizon is 20 percent, in terms of, you spend 5x the money and you get 20% extra benefit out of the woodway. but the kickr bike? over the kickr? or for that matter the NEO smart bike over the NEO 2T? that's like a 40% upgrade in feel and feature. so, if you starting a pain cave from scratch, and you don't mind a little bit of a duplication (because you already have a smart trainer) i would invest in a smart bike.

Such an privilege hearing from the Slowman. Thanks as always for the terrific advice!
I had not even considered the smart bike and was not even aware of the difference in experience from smart trainers. So exciting! I’m going to look into this.
Thanks for the tips Slowman!

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