Hello,

This comes up from time to time. I have no problem anointing LA as the greatest TdF rider, but best rider of all time? No, besides the other tours, those on your list won massive amounts of other races some on the road, on the track and cyclocross.



Styrrell

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Styrrell

la is around 15th 'all time greatest' in my book.

In this case a "Full House" trumps "7 of a kind". All though LA could have won the Giro and the Vuelta... but he didn't.

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'could have'

How about 'didn't,' or better, 'didn't try.' If he could have he would have.

What about the triple crown? (Tour, Giro and World Championships in 1 year), only Merckx and Roche have ever done that.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

Why could've he? Before I get called a troll, yes he absolutely could if he trained for that specific tour, but ten gave up on the TdF, but he has not shown the ability to win two tours in the same year like those on the list. Also the other tours tend to be a bit more nationalistic. The other teams have much more of "any italian or spaniard is better than a foreigner" attitude. Couple that with the fact that the Giro and the Vuelta typically have no TTT, less TT and more climbing and the courses are not as favorable to LA.


I look at it this way, LA benefits from the fact that the most important race in the world suits him immensely. But in a different world, say one where strictly your finishing place , not time gap mattered, or where one day races mattered, or climbing stages were 80Km and not 200km and LA might (I said might) be the super domestique for George Hincapie.

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Styrrell

He didn't because the majority of the US fans only care about the tour. If that is what the target audiance cares about then that is what the sponsors are going to put up the big dollars for.

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LA did try the Vuelta is 98, he came in 4th. I don't think he has ever started the Grio.

Dave in VA

us fans care about the tour because lance was riding in it. he created 'the market.' if he were to ride the giro, they would probably care about that too. look at all the buzz from the hour record thanks to him spending an hour in a wind tunnel.

he did ride in the ronde van vlaanderen this year, and nobody cared, but he wasn't racing to win. You can bet if he was, and did win, it would have been all over the news.

lance knows he can win the tdf, and if he does anything else, like win the dauphine, he has trouble during the tour. that's why he just does the tour.

How about a grand slam, all three grand tours plus the world championships, that will never ever be done.

Dave in VA

has he ever even ridden a race, one-day or stage, in italy? I think the '98 vuelta was just part of him getting enough uci points to be able ride in the tdf.

He also did the Cascade Classic in Oregon in '98. So did leipheimer (when he rode for saturn).

[quote]I look at it this way, LA benefits from the fact that the most important race in the world suits him immensely. But in a different world, say one where strictly your finishing place , not time gap mattered, or where one day races mattered, or climbing stages were 80Km and not 200km and LA might (I said might) be the super domestique for George Hincapie. [/quote]

that's a strange hypothetical. 'if the tdf was half the distance and breakaways didn't matter, la would probably not win.' that race would suck.

I'm going to put on my marketing hat:

As a marketing executive I want to segment the market. You represent a very small, highly involved user group. I find that you have a well developed opinion that would be difficult to change. You expect my product to deliver results. This is great for Trek and Shimano but the real money comes from USPS/Disco, Nike and Oakley.

Disco, Nike, Oakley, Bissil executives have the big money. They want to make impressions on a much larger market segment. Let's call this segment "the I own a bike and ride it 10 times a year". This I own a bike group is big and only knows about the TDF. So if you are an American cycling team and want to attract the big money sponsors you need to win the TDF. If you can win the TDF you won't get the media coverage and you won't get the sponsor dollars.

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I do not think Jan would do very well in the Giro -- Typically the climbs are a bit steeper -- Jan is better at hammering up long climbs that are not super steep.

Plus as someone else already mentioned - Less time trial factor.

I agree.

But disco won the giro this year and a couple vueltas in the past, so surely they are of importance to the sponsors. If LA could have won two in a year, they would have surely had him try.

You could also look at the nascar (gag, gasp) model where the fans are nuts about all the little races and know everything about the cars and drivers. I would be going for maximum exposure in all the races to increase peoples interest in the sport in general. If this were to succeed, the fans would surely jump on the very successful disco bandwagon much like they do the yankees or lakers (in the past, anyway).

Plus I probably make more money selling one $5000 bike than 10 $500 bikes anyway, so going for the more knowledgeable fan base seems like a good strategy.

How may $5,000 bike do you thing that you can sell? For a lot of people that is more then what they will spend on a car.

I never said that LA could win 2 Grand Tours in one year. I don't think he can. I believe that he can win both the Giro and the Veulta in but only one per year.

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it's tough to remember what each person has said in these forum conversations.

Good point, I would certainly do a lot more market research than I have currently done, which consisted of mostly shooting from the hip.

It seems like he could do a vuelta/tdf double since the vuelta is so much later in the year. basso could have arguable won the giro this year and might take 2nd in the tdf as well. but (gasp), maybe basso is a better cyclist than la.

Will Basso dare try the double again next year? Phil and Paul seem to think it was a very bad move this year.

Dave in VA

i hope so. There's no way he was going to beat lance this year, so it was the perfect year to try it. If he didn't get sick in the giro, he would have won. To have a win in the giro and a 2nd in the tdf would be incredible.

I think it would be a bad move not to do both next year. Cunego is his only real worry in the giro, maybe ullrich will pull it together for next years tdf...seems better to not put all your eggs in one basket.

Hello,



I didn't say if the TdF was half the distance I said if the mountain stages were half the distance. As the TdF stands now its a bit weird. The have more mileage and days that are flat and rolling that TT or mountanous, but those days dont really count. Suppose they either cut back the dstance on the climbs (so the climbers still win, but by a few minutes over a strong sprinter, not by 15 minutes or more) or give time bonus for the sprint wins of 10, 7, 5, 4, 3 ,2 ,1 minutes.



Then every day matters and every type of rider goes in with a chance at yellow. As it stands Vino will never win, even though he may be the best all around rider, because its the best climber/TT who is going to win.



Styrrell

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Styrrell

They keep harping on that, but I really don't think it would make a huge difference. Would it make him TT faster? LA has been able to grab his wheel on the climbs. I just can't see Basso dropping LA very easily especially to the point of taking minutes and not seconds out of him.

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"luck is at the intersection of preparation and opportunity"

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perfectly correct. besides Jan doesn't like climbs with constant changes in slope...and in the Giro it's a lot of that...in the Giro, you really have to be a top climber...although Miguel did the Giro-TdF twice.

vino won't win because he rides like a maniac and is not the team leader, not because of the route. he's a weak sprinter anyway, so your system wouldn't help him.

only a select few riders will have a chance to win the tour, regardless of the route. you have to be able to tt to win, unless you're an insane climber like pantani who can put 6 - 10 minutes into you to make up for his abysmal tt'ing.

your system just values sprinting over tt'ing and climbing, which isn't necessarily a good thing.

Nope, done correctly my system would value sprinting as much a TT and climbing. I would love to see the argument before a tour of whose going to win involve the best cyclists not just the one trick ponies (LA is a 2 trick pony - Climbing and TT). Also Vino is a decent sprinter amongst tour contenders just not compared to the true sprinters.



Styrrell

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Styrrell