I am pretty astonished by some of the responses to Dave's post.

Get over it
spellcheck
what do you expect
don't complain
don't run in unleashed area

I think this was a major event to Dave and he wanted to vent a little. Isn't that what we all do here?

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_________________________________
I'll be what I am
A solitary man

I'll resist the urge to make a generalization about dogs and dog owners...but I want sooooooo badly to do so.

One characteristic of 100 percent of every dog owner who's dog has bitten, nipped, jumped, chased or just harassed me during a ride or run is that they're all complete dumb asses! The guy in your story seems to be king of the dumb ass dog owners. Every single dog owner who has watched me get bitten or harassed by their dogs ALWAYS says, "...he won't hurt you." or "...you're the first person he's every bitten." Liars! Get your stupid dog out of the road! Ever heard of invisible fence???

I tell them, the first bite is free. The next time I'll do my best to see that they have to live in a refridgerator box when my Attorney finishes up with them. I'm sure there are responsible, nice and intelligent dog owners out there, I just haven't had occasion to meet one yet.

Anyhow, let me tell you about my most recent dog story. About 12 miles into a bike training route I take, there's a house with a german sheppard mix dog. Whenever the dog is outside, it's never on a leash and there's no invisible fence. As a result, it always runs off property and chases me nipping at my heels and calve. His owner has observed this several times and does nothing. So far, no bites but lots of close calls. Yesterday while approaching this house, I notice that a large truck towing a back hoe is approaching me from the opposite lane. It appears that the truck is traveling about 40 or 50 mph and I guesstimate that the truck and my bike will cross paths just about the same time right in front of Fido's house. Sure enough, the dog sees me approaching and begins his usual "vectoring" to intercept me in the road and nip at my left leg. He's running at me barking his head off completely oblivious to the oncoming truck approaching him in the oncoming lane of the country road we're on. I think to myself, "This is your last day on earth, Fido, and you're going out in a blaze of glory." I was thrilled that this menacing dog and his dumb ass owner would be out of my cycling life forever! Sadly, it was not meant to be. I heard no "yelp!" from the underside of the truck's tires...somehow Fido managed to evade the truck only to live to continue to harass me and my training buddies into the foreseeable future. We'll have to be content to keep blasting him with our pepper spray, I guess.

I hope you're not bothered by those dogs anymore. Somehow I don't think that will be the case. About all we can to is carry mobile phones, pepper spray and hope for oncoming vehicles to thin the population of unruly dogs owned by stupid dog owners.

I just put on my asbestos tri suit. Flame away...

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Lifeguard: "Do you need help?" Me: "No, that's just my butterfly."

Have you ever called animal control or anything? The impression I got talking to the cops is unless the dogs attacked and killed
a person, they were not interested in talking to me.

I will make a report to animal control, and to the CHP on his possible drinking and bypassing the setup in his truck.
Maybe nothing will happen. But, at least I will have tried. Yep, the first nip at me was free, the second got a cat killed.
I now wish I would have pushed it more the first time, and the cat might be alive, but my guess is the owner would have just
told me to take a flying leap.

Was the word "reputation" that I used fair, in your opinion and experience with some dogs and some owners?

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Your word reputation should have been preceded by one or more the following descriptors:

bad, poor or lousy.

Yes, in my opinion, your use of the word is not only fair, but a bit on the compassionate side.

As I said, I'm sure there are great dogs owned by great human beings out there. Sadly, my personal experience has been limited to menacing dogs owned by dumb ass people. I hope one day to be able to change my opinion about dogs and their owners, but the scars on both of my calves keeps reminding me that I've been bitten 3 times...

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Lifeguard: "Do you need help?" Me: "No, that's just my butterfly."

<< So, even though I raced yesterday, I decided to try and do my 2 hour cross country run. >>

<snip remainder>

And the moral of the story is - if you can run 2hrs the day after a race, you didn't go hard enuff in the race.
;-)


Dave - sucks that you came across some douchebag who also happened to be an incredibly irresponsible dog owner.
I don't think you can extraoplate anything else beyond that, regarding dogs and/or dog owners.

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float , hammer , and jog

"Was the word "reputation" that I used fair, in your opinion and experience with some dogs and some owners?"

I am having a very tough time trying to see your point on this one. Some dogs are not very well-mannered and maybe even dangerous. The same can be said of many people, horses, and leopards. Do each of those groups have the "reputation" that you are trying to tag on dog owners and dogs?

Your thread title says a great deal more about your intentions with this post than anything else that you have written. How do you honestly expect people to get to the merits of your post if you chose a title that you know is both unfair and likely to get people worked up? Of course you are free to label, accuse and bait all you want, but please don't pretend to be a victim of your own design.

For me, 100% of dogs and owners have reputations. That is why I asked if others feel the same way.
If I see a person walking their dog in the morning, or evening, what is my first thought. There are out to let
it crap on anothers property and act as if it never happens. When I do some one clean up after them, I am impressed.
Why is it not the other way around for me? Not sure, but that is just how I respond.

Now, what I did not say, is 100% of dogs and or owners are stupid or bad people.

Big difference between the two. If I had said the second, I would have expected to be nailed.
But, a lot of folks I know, and have posted, agree with the first. These few that do not handle their dogs
safely, for me, give a "reputation" to all dogs and owners, which is not fair.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

This reply is not specifically to you, Cincy. I just had to hit reply somewhere. Anyway, Dave is obviously a bit anti-dog. That said, what he witnessed is very dangerous dog behavior. I'm about as pro-dog as a person can get. It would be a pretty safe bet for me that I know more about dog training and dog behavior than almost everyone on this board. My Dad is a vet; I worked with dogs every summer day and every weekend day of my life from age 8 until graduating from HS. I have experienced about every behavior you can imagine from a dog. Retriever training (for hunting and such) is my other passion (other than tri). My 2yo lab is laying at my feet as I type this. I know dogs and I love dogs.

The dogs Dave encountered today are dangerous. That is not their fault. It is the fault of their owner. Never the less, a dangerous dog is a dangerous dog. Dogs are service animals. These dogs can no longer be a service to man. They shoud be euthenized. That is sad because it's not their fault, but it is what it is. Dave's biases does not make that fact less true. He has to notify animal control.

I couldn't agree more.

I can't believe that you got chased by and nipped at by two pit bulls, then watched them kill a cat, and people are giving YOU a hard time. FWIW I agree with you 100%. A few bad apples make me wary any time I run or bike by a dog.

Sorry waterboy, I'm calling bullshit on this one. Your story just doesn't work. Nothing in your story really works. Let's recap:

Dave raced yesterday. He did a 2 hour run today. Some dogs, not sure what kind, were "nipping" at him. The owner was in a truck not caring. The owner, according to Dave, was not a bad person, and according to him, he never said he was a bad person. The problem is that Dave went to great lengths explaining the the owner had to breath into some device to get the truck started. Dave wasn't sure what this device was, and the owner had to open the hood to get the car started.

Bullshit.

He then calls 911 to help make a good case for the owner....you are quite a saint. You then again state that you did not get your 2 hour run in...too bad.

I'm trying to figure out what your motivation is....to let everyone know you did a 2 hour run after racing, to let everyone know your stance on dogs, to let everyone know what a nice guy you are to try and help some clueless dog owner...I don't know.

Please let us know how your next race and 2 hour run goes, we'll be waiting for the report with breathless anticipation.

So......did you just leave the cat there? I mean, was it dead? Was it injured? How badly was it suffering? How could you not go back and check? Better yet, how did you leave the cat lying there in the first place?

It looked up to you with big eyes slowly dying and you did nothing? Man...

The true tragedy to this tale is the poor cat.

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team website: http://snappletriteam.com/

team blog: http://snappletriteam.com/?page_id=10

Interesting post I got from a person.

"Dave, I doubt you're going to get flamed for your
post. I totally believe that in most cases, a dog is
bad because either the owner in negligent in training
or intentionally trained the dog to be bad. I say this
with some experience--my Mom trains and shows dogs for
a living. She believes the above opinion, and I've
seen it many, many times. Her entire training process
is based around training the owner, not the dog. She
can take a problem dog and turn it around sometimes in
minutes, but without explaining the ideas to the owner
and having the owner do the same things, it's useless.

With that, I believe that when you come across a loose
dog while running, the best thing to do is to stop
running. Most dogs chase you because the fun is in the
chase. Turn toward the dog and in a loud,
authoritative voice, tell the dog to leave you alone.
I simply use "Go!" and point in the direction it came.
That works about 90 percent of the time. At the very
least, it stops the dog in it's tracks. The key is
looking and sounding more menacing than the dog thinks
it is. Use a deep and loud voice; don't sound scared.

Bending down to a dog is not good. That makes you seem
submissive to it. Bend down, and the dog is even more
likely to jump on you. Granted, sometimes you may end
up getting licked to death, but you also don't want to
chance it. I, too, hate hearing owners with dogs
unleashed say, "Don't worry, my dog's friendly." Bull.
Even the best trained, friendly dog may decide he
doesn't like someone. My Mom has all her dogs trained
to voice and hand signals, and they are all obedience
champions. But she still only allows them off leash in
empty fields. Otherwise they are on a 6-foot leash.
That's the way it should be so we (all humans) don't
have to worry about a loose dog.

Alan
"

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

FWIW Dog bite statistics. Check out the last one.

• A survey by the national Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta ("CDC") concluded that dogs bite nearly 2% of the U.S. population -- more than 4.7 million people annually. (Sacks JJ, Kresnow M, Houston B. Dog bites: how big a problem? Injury Prev 1996;2:52-4.)
• Almost 800,000 bites per year -- one out of every 6 -- are serious enough to require medical attention. (Weiss HB, Friedman D, Coben JH. Incidence of dog bite injuries treated in emergency departments. JAMA 1998;279:51-53.)
• Dog bites send nearly 334,000 victims to hospital emergency departments per year (914 per day). (National Center for Health Statistics National Hospital Ambulatory Medical Care Survey for 1992-1994. See also the CDC update of much of that research, focusing on the year 2001, in which it was established that the number of people treated in emergency rooms was 368,245. CDC releases epidemiologic survey of dog bites in 2001 - September 15, 2003.)
• Bites to children represent more than 50 percent of the total number cases.
• 26% of child-victims -- compared with 12% of the adults -- require medical care. (Ibid., National Center for Health Statistics, above.)
• Getting bitten by a dog is the second most frequent cause of visits to emergency rooms.

Seriously, do some research. Pit bulls (and this has been confirmed by the behavior of all I have come into contact with so far in my life) have an really sweet disposition.

OK

Rottweilers and Pit Bulls were involved in 60 percent of the 27 dog bite fatalities that occurred in 1997 and 1998. Rottweilers were involved in 10 deaths, and Pit Bulls were involved in 6.

Sweet.

For someone with extensive "experience", I find your euthanasia comment disturbing. It's true that a dog with behavioral problems(aggression, fearfulness, anxiety, etc.) are USUALLY an owner's fault. HOWEVER, here comes the huge however- just because a dog has problems, don't mean they HAVE TO BE put down. In younger dogs, rehabilitation is a reality. Dave did not mention anything about age so these dogs could very well be rehabilitated. I am not saying every single aggressive dogs can be rehabilitated but jumping the gun on the pink juice is rather extreme.

All dogs need to be leashed, unless in a controlled environment(dedicated areas), and even then with very close supervision. I've trained and handled search and rescue dogs for both fire and police departments and guess what? Our dogs are leashed when they are not on active work. In fact many police departments muzzle their dogs during down time. I HIGHLY doubt many can claim their dogs to be as obedient or well trained as these working dogs and yet many still want to let their dogs run free.

Owners cannot ALWAYS control environmental factors. One can always expose their dogs to as many different experiences as possible and train them to behave accordingly but anything can happen. And when such happen, the dog's response cannot be predicted. Furthermore, "incidents" always happen, even within the "trained working canine" category so just friggin leash your dog.

"For me, 100% of dogs and owners have reputations."


Ok, now we are getting somewhere. You really have two posts going on at the same time. The first is a story of some aggresive dogs and their negligent owner. That is not your fault and you should not have to worry about dogs chasing you when running. I empathize with you to some degree as I have had run-ins with dogs and a cycling group here in town has regular run-ins with a few dogs on our route. If your post stopped there and simply reminded people to be aware of their surroundings while running/cycling, I am sure that your post would have been seen as mostly positive.

The second point of your post was really just to tell people that you don't like dogs and that you have problems with dogs in public. You are using today's events as a way to justify your beliefs and I call B.S. You don't like dogs- thats cool, not everyone does or should. My issue with your post is that this is not a "What does h20fun think about X?" forum. It really isn't.

I love my dog and our family is shopping for a new one. I live in rural Alabama and deal with unleashed "yard dogs" EVERY time I step out my door. It is AL state law...even though I live outside the city limits...to have your pet on a leash if it is off of your property. I am continually chased by stupid owners yard dogs. I am shopping for a firearm...whether it be a CO2 pistol or a dirty Harry...to deal with these pests. The owners around here are family people who are just stupid to the fact that people ride/run on "their" road. These owners don't think twice about having a yard dog and simply dismiss my "inconvenience". ...say whatever you want, but I'm sick of it and have absolutely NO compassion for these animals or their owners. Let redneck justice prevail!!!!

I won't call anyone out, but I'm kinda' shocked at the reponses to this post. Obviously, not that I ever thought this, but ST is not a "safe place" to hang out. I feel like I'm on the 4th grade playground sometimes.

As a supporter of h20fun's post, do you agree that dog owners have a reputation? I mean, really, what are we talking about here other than he doesn't like dogs? Nobody likes what happened to Dave today, but he chose to frame his post as an attack on dog owners in general by attaching a "reputation" to all of them. Sorry, but that dog just don't hunt. :)

ST loves their dogs and Dave knows that. He also knew that by generalizing he would take some heat. He wanted it and he got it to some degree. This is not his first time in this situation to be sure.

With that said, I am glad that h20fun is OK.

FWIW, in one of the more comprehensive studies on dog bite fatalities (5 years from 1975-1980), Dachshunds were 33% as like to kill as a 'pit bull' (2 deaths versus six). Does that mean we should fear the mighty Dachshund? I'm thinking 'no'. I'm thinking that there are other factors besides breed that factor into why dogs bit and why dogs kill.

Why take my word for it though? Instead of spouting useless tripe on the internet, you could always educate yourself. Here's a good start. Of course, this would require reading and thinking--and I fully understand that making silly comments is just easier. RC10's posts make that abundantly clear.

The book is actually a good read, and highlights the fact that 100 years ago, we'd be having this very discussion about the ever-frightening Blood Hound.

That is because nice and intelligent (I call it responsible) dog owners don't let their dogs run around off leash in public. We know to keep our dogs under control and don't let them chase bicycles (or anyone/thing else).

And, the first bite isn't free. It is ALWAYS the dog owner (or handler) responsible. Dogs are not "wild" animals, but all breeds come "hardwired" for some undesirable traits. Most all dogs have an instinct to chase. It is up to the owner to socialize, train and control these traits.

I own dogs and cats. Neither my dogs or cats are in public without being on a leash. And I have some pretty highly trained dogs, I still don't trust them not to chase critters. The cat, not so trained, but isn't allowed outside for her own safety.

Its a shame you wish ill of the dog, he is not to blame for having an ignorant owner. and BTW it is a German Shepherd, not a sheppard.

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Serious question: if your hip flexors weren't so tired from PC's and long cranks, do you think there's any way you could have just outrun the dog?

I pretty much agree with you but especially in rural areas, dogs often quit becoming "dogs" and revert back to some kind of canine animal. I can understand Indiana's sentiment as I get sick of hillbillys laughing at the fag in lycra shorts while their mongrel canine chases me down.

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_________________________________
I'll be what I am
A solitary man

He must still be recovering from racing the Boston Marathon, because in case you didnt know...he did qualify. Just saying...