Don't the really good swimmers flip turn because its faster? There really is no other reason.

All these other things about breathing aren't really that much of a benefit. Now I am trying to learn to flip because I want to swim faster but at the end of the day there is so much different about pool swimming and open water swimming - an being to hold to manage missing a breath can be learned other ways. There are more important skills - like sighting, being able to breathe on both sides, drafting, swimming straighter.

And the open turn gives you a rest every 25 yards, especially if you do it like most triathletes or rec swimmers.

You don't have to believe me. I've only been doing them for 30 years, or Slowman who's been at it for longer than that, or every other good swimmer on the thread.

Unless you can do both competently, I'm not sure how you can say that your experience trumps mine?

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

I did Rev3 rush yesterday. I was the only open turner anywhere near the front. It was embarrassing giving up 3-4 meters on EVERY SINGLE TURN..

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

This last week has been very humbling. I will get to work on my flip turns as soon as I get back to Florida.

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Austin Hardy -

Most of us don't flip turn because we suck at swimming. Just as simple as that. We don't ever get to the skill level where it seems worth bothering to learn how to flip.

That said, I've made big improvements in my swimming in the three years I've been at it, starting at age 57 and doing 300 yards at 2:30/100y pace, now I'm doing 3-4K yards/session at 1:35-40 pace for longer sets and 1:25-1:35 for shorter sets. I decided I'd become a passable enough swimmer that it was time to learn flip turns and was making decent progress. I could do it OK if I just practiced turns in isolation but I was having trouble putting it all together in an actual swim set. But at about the same time I also received feedback about some flaws in my stroke and I decided to put the flip turns on hold and just work on my stroke. Just can't concentrate on both learning to flip and stroke improvement at the same time. As you get older learning gets harder! Also found the flip turns were aggravating an old injury as I was less likely to push off at right angles to the wall. When I did it right it seemed like I could get a better push than I ever did with an open turn. I do keep my open turns as short a possible, I don't hold onto the wall, I just touch it.

So the flip turns are on hold for now but I do plan to get back to them at some point in the not too distant future. Don't think it will really help my OWS but it's mostly just about becoming a better swimmer overall. Plus it looks way cooler and that's half of what this thread is about.

+1

Although the flip turn is not going to be used in a triathlon, the confidence you get from knowing you can do one will likely help with your overall swimming training. It helps keep a better rhythm going while you're in the pool as well. Needed? No. Recommended? Definitely.

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Swimmers and Triathletes
http://www.SwimovateCanada.ca

Depends if I'm feeling lazy or not and if i have a sore knee from running...

It took me ages before i bothered to learn flip turns, my guess is that most people who use the excuse "no flip turns in open water" just can't do them and are intimidated. I know it took me a while to work up to flipping near the wall with the fear of smashing my head or feet, hitting the bottom in the shallow end lol. It's a fun tool to have in your kit and i recommend learning it just to keep the flow better while swimming and it makes you look cool :P

I recommend practicing flipping in the middle of the pool before working up to the wall.

I thought all real triathletes train to go faster. :P Flip-turns are not going to make a triathlete faster in OWS.

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The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.

I sincerely hope that's supposed to be in pink.

that is where you are wrong. flip turns mimic OWS - open turns do not. therefore flip turns will make you a faster triathlete in OWS

lol. I've done a lot of OWS races and don't recall any opportunities for flip-turns. What phase of the OWS should I be doing flip turns? At the buoy? What if I'm training in Lake Michigan, when should I incorporate flip turns into those swims? :)

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The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.

Think of it this way if you must - a flip turn is the best way to avoid doing an open turn, the which is even more irrelevant in open water, obviously - no walls to grab on to in open water! It's by far the least of two evils when it comes to approximating continuous swimming, never mind the speed difference. For that reason alone (avoiding grabbing the wall every length) every triathlete should do them, regardless of how well. One or two people in this thread have made noises hinting that they don't actually touch the wall or push off during their turns. I'm highly skeptical of that, because a) I've never seen anyone do it and b) such a turn would surely be a spine wrenching dog-paddling flail fest, still with extra breaths and/or workload relief. Flipping before the wall without touching it, on the other hand, that's pretty much a drill (if done on purpose), but once you can do that, why not do it right most of the time, and be able to keep up with your peers.

how many walls do you grab onto in OWS??? seriously??? I give up so many good swimmers plus guppies like me have told you that flip turns give you the continuous swimming that OWS is. and you still argue.


Happily I will get better at swimming. and I wont be a guppie anymore

So cute how people get so emotionally attached to certain aspects of training. Especially with swimmers. Such high criteria in order to reach the ranks of a 'real swimmer'. One must not shower before entering. One must pee in the pool. One must do flip-turns. lol.

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The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.

Seems like you've mastered being a real triathlete... one must be an obtuse ass.

wow
just wow

the only thing mentioned is that flip turns mimic OWS and you turn it into something else you really have a stick way up there

If you read this thread, it is mentioned that real swimmers do flip-turns. Thus I added the other well-established rules (from other threads) to being a 'real' swimmer. Those rules include not showering before entering the pool and peeing in the pool. Like I said, people get emotional. Did I personally attack anyone? Nope. Yet I was just called an ass and you said I have a stick up somewhere. All over flip-turns. LOL.

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The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.

Real swimmers will also tell you to wear goggles while swimming, hope you are not following that advice either.

Okay, so to change the OP very slightly (since I think ALMOST everyone on here will concede deep down that flip turns will make you a better swimmer and almost certainly a better triathlete)....

....at what point in learning to swim do you think it becomes important to spend time learning to flip turn. I'd presume that if I'm a 2:15/100 swimmer then spending any swimming time working on a flip turn is taking time away from correcting what are probably serious stroke flaws, whilst at the other end of the scale if I'm swimming 1:15/100 then my stroke must be pretty solid and I'd benefit from them. Please don't just say "It doesn't take any time to learn them". It does for some of us crappy adult swimmers. (I should maybe add that as around a cruise pace 1:55/100scm swimmer I am attempting to learn, though am not entirely convinced it's the best use of my time!!)

For me (the rest of you can go to hell as I really don't care), it became important when I decided that the other thing I needed to do to become more like a real swimmer was go & swim with real swimmers at Masters. It wasn't about what time I was doing, it was just about doing what they do and not getting yelled at by the coach for not doing them.

To my complete and utter surprise, I've got faster going to Masters and doing flip turns.. then we all go the pub and drink beer :-)

Cool story bro...

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

My take is that it is never a bad thing to learn skills that will ultimately help your swimming, and the sooner you learn those things the better. Some people pick them up instantly, but even if you take one swim session to learn the basic mechanics (I think that's doable by anyone, not talking about a turn here, just a somersault in the water) and then take 3 minutes at the start of each practice to work on them a little bit, that doesn't eat into your time spent working on other more important things. Once you get them to the point where you can execute a turn reasonably reliably, then just work them into the practice as much as you can.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Why. Do. You. INSIST. On. Being. So. Swim. Stupid?

and yes BTW you can incorporate a form of a flip turn at the buoys in lake Michigan or Lake Okanagon for that matter.

I learned to do flip turns fairly easily once I watched a great video. If *I* can learn, as a 40+ year old mediocre swimmer, then anyone can, IMHO. I taught myself. While I was learning, I thought I would never master them because I kept getting water up my nose. It took just a few sessions to master the basic move, at first practising in an open pool at the wall. I didn't care that I looked like a fool sometimes when I "misfired" and ended up disoriented and goofy at the end of the lane in front of other swimmers.

I've been doing them since 2010.

I do them because:

1. They're super fun! I prefer them to open turns now. I look forward to turning at the end!
2. They look really cool and make you look like a real swimmer, even if you're not!
3. Open turns allow you to rest and breathe at the wall, which is not a good simulation of OWS
4. They're less awkward than open turns.

Did I mention that they look really cool? I like the big splash when you're wearing flippers!

You know guys I was just poking fun at those people who claim you have to do certain things to be a real swimmer, real biker, real runner, etc. Those types of people get so emotionally attached to being "real" that they get butt-hurt* when it's questioned.

I do open turns majority of time. I do flip-turns if circle swim, basically I do whatever I want that morning. I'm an adult so having the label "real swimmer" is irrelevant to me. As I said before I beat athletes out of the water that are doing flip turns in the pool thus it's not a real factor to coming out of the swim faster. I put more emphasis on sighting, form, breathing, etc.

Besides this time of year I start to do my swims in Lake Michigan. Thus no flip-turns. No need to shower and peeing is irrelevant. This I'll never make it to the all mighty ranks of a real swimmer. :(

As for learning another skill. I'd agree with that since a circle swim almost requires a flip. Unless you get a swimmer that flips slower than a rotisserie chicken then an open turn is better. I don't think id ever tell another person to focus on flips until they've mastered bilateral breathing, strong form, etc.

*I used the word butt-hurt because that is a ST favorite despite being a word used 20 years ago. Some reason ST user have held on too that word. Everyone I see it on the forums I take a time warp to the days of arena metal. :)

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The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.