I'm not a swimmer.

I cannot do them simply because of a prior neck injury I had surgery for.....

As for not getting a "mini rest and breath" every 25 yards during an open water swim -- this may be true!

But you also will not get a massive wall push every 25 yards in open water either!

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Hook Em' Horns

I have been trying for years for years to get this down and many people have been driven crazy trying to teach me. It all clicked for me thanks to my current swim coach. I could flip in the middle of the pool OK but when when I tried to flip at the wall all hell broke loose and I inhaled mass amounts of water. I was trying to do too much. My current coach had me stop at mortysct's step #4. Swim to the wall, flip and just place your feet on the wall. I did not have to worry about the push off or the stream line. I did this until I was comfortable (about 5 times) and I had the distance and timing down. From there it is easy and now I am a flippin fool in other ways than before.

Kids learn things quickly. Adults don't. Late to life swimmers with limited pool time, sometimes have to prioritize. At best I can get to the pool twice a week for maybe a 40 minute swim. But I can run faster than you, so I make up the time there.

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Ian

Sounds like to swim way too close to the person in front of you. Open or flip should not matter if you give proper space.

My point is that you have about 90 opportunities to practice a flip turn in a 3000m or yard workout, so it really isn't a big extra time commitment.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

X2
Flip turns are not that hard to learn. You can get the basics down in 2 weeks.
I think the main reason people don't do them is their lack of Fitness.
Flip turns with 1-2 dolphin kicks off the wall require massive amounts of oxygen, especially if you are doing longer sets.
I am a FOP swimmer but I am always struggling to keep up with the ex college guys in my Masters group.
These guys just don't ever need to breathe. We spend lots of time almost every day on hypoxic sets, breath control, etc

We also have some of the best open water swimmers in the country on our Team and guess what, they all log massive amounts of time in the pool with flip turns.

I don't really think it makes a difference in the vast scheme of things for open water swimming. There are pros and cons - the greatest pro being that everytime you push off the wall, you get an opportunity to get into a streamlined position and this is a somewhat positive reinforcement. For cons, some might also say that the open turn gives you a chance to take an extra breath and rest for a second, but if you do an open turn without the breath or pause, it is virtually the same as a flip turn in this regard. The big con is that the push off the wall is free speed that you don't get in open water swimming. Does this matter? Probably not. This is a debate that really has no conclusion.

l read that in several forums. lncluding USAT. My coach agreed that when going under lane lines, open turns were just as good or faster.
We are seeded based on projected swim times and l usually pass 3-5 people in each race. And almost always coming off the wall.

I still don't know how though. I can go under the lane line on a flip just as easily as stay in my own lane, I just change the angle I push off the wall. The lane line is almost irrelevant.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

"You make a great case...but I frankly don't know how to do it...someone needs to post step by step instructions!"

little known fact: there's an online magazine attached to this reader forum.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

This is something that has surprised me a bit in the preceding pages. Spend some time watching youtube videos instead of surfing ST, spend like 30 minutes getting the basics of a flip turn down, and then do one every wall you come to. You don't need to do it perfectly, but do one decently and improve from there. This really shouldn't take that much time to get the basics down.

I think this is a debate only among Triathletes. If you were to ask real open water swimmers
there would be no arguing about the benefits of flip turns

There is no free speed doing a flip turn, just "speed" which you are paying with a huge oxygen dept.

Like most things blanket advice is bad advice. There is no way it is faster, not even remotely, for me or Jason to do an open turn when going under the line. But I can see it not working well for someone who doesn't have an efficient push off the wall because you may not have enough time to clear the rope. One of the highlights of last season for me was passing a pro in a pool swim at the lane change turn.

i think if you are just learning how to swim or not a strong swimmer it's probably not worth it to bother with flip turns. like many have said it's not really going to help swimming open water.

on the other hand if you are really trying to break through to the next level i think it will help a lot with your fitness due to the hypoxic effect you get.

right now i'm up to about 70 to 80% flip turns in my third year of swimming. 100% with a pull buoy . . . for some reason kicking still takes a lot out of me. but then again i don't do any hypoxic sets so that's probably why i haven't progressed.

I'll never understand why this is an issue for people. It only takes a few minutes to learn and makes pool swimming easier and more continuous.

1) finish stroke by leaving the arm at your side
2) drive the opposite arm down along side the other and grab your hands together
2) follow the motion of the moving arm into a summersault
3) kick off the wall
4) barrel roll

No big deal.

Why does it make pool swimming easier? An open turn isn't hard.

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Ian

IMHO it takes more physical effort to touch a wall, pendulum and rotate then it does to use your momentum to tumble.

So how is this different from an open turn, unless you're stopping short of the wall and re-starting from a standstill?

Put it this way, a flip turn is less unlike OW than doing open turns.

I think you're oversimplifying it by saying it's no big deal - at least for me. As an adult onset swimmer nothing has come easy. I've been learning to do flip turns but it's difficult. Lack of speed definitely hurts my turns. I watch the fishes and they basically seem to glide in toward the wall and easily flip and shoot off the wall. On the other hand, I'm coming in slowly, struggling with my timing so I can get a good breath before I go under and have very little momentum to carry me into the wall. I have a dozen things going through my head about technique and add on hypoxia - it sucks.

When I do sets with fins it's a totally different story. Feels awesome. Just can't replicate it yet but I'm going to keep at it.

One odd thing I'm struggling with. When I take my final breath to my right side I start my turn already rotating. If my last breath is to the left side I flip straight over and most of the time come off the wall looking up, which I think is how you're supposed to do it.

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Loud pawls save lives

Then your doing it wrong. Maybe you need to practice your open turns.

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Ian

There's a fastlane? I swim at a fairly prestigious facility and there's no designated fastlane during lap swim (Rose Bowl Aquatic in Pasadena, CA). Most the time it's circle swimming in long course (50m). I try to pick a lane with swimmers that seem to be going my speed and respect distance (leave a big gap). Pretty easy to do in a 50m lane.

I'm a newbie, and training for my first tri sprint. I'm an avid cyclist (XC mountain biker actually), converted multi-sport mostly to mix up my training and then found I really really enjoy all three. First race is in August. I had never really swam in a swim facility before, and was very intimidated my first time at the pool - especially with all these crazy lean and tan swimmer folks (in speedos?!?!), and I'm a pasty white Irish guy in surf trunks LOL! But I found that everyone is super cool and pretty much keep to themselves, and now I'm working on my own tan :D

Regarding flip turns, I do not do them because my skills are not there yet. But I think they would be ideal because stopping at the wall gives me a chance to catch my breath, even if I don't intend to. It also breaks my flow and breathing, and I have found that swimming more than running and biking is very dependent on breathing pattern. I'm scared for my first open water race, to be honest.

Does pushing off the wall hurt? I think it does, but hey I swim 1,500m to train for my 500m race. So I think I am putting the work in wall or no wall.

I don't think so I was a pretty accomplished flier and breast stroke swimmer my open tuns are damn good...

My take on it is that an easy open turn, where you basically stop and take a couple of breaths, is easier than an easy flip turn. A fast open turn is harder. There is just more movement. Arms move more when the elbow and shoulder drops and arm comes overhead, knees have to come up tighter, there's more vertical up and down movement. And you don't get that much of a breath on a fast open turn.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly