Why would Zipp include Continental tires with their wheels?

Why wouldn't they, if that's what they optimized their wheel around? It potentially provides value to the consumer in two ways. First, it eliminates the guessing on which is the best tire. Second, if Zipp buys Continental tires at volume, they can (presumably) get better pricing which they could opt to pass along to the consumer. Alternately, the could add the MSRP of the tire to the wheel and boost margins a bit. I'm not seeing the downside.

While optimized or designed for certain tires, that isn't necessarily what tire people will need. Even among same brands of tire. People road race AND TT on the same wheelsets in the amateur world. But, you can afford to swing for some TT tires, training tires, and road tires.

Why have to toss something in the bin?

That's the opposite of "adding value". That's adding waste.

Especially for pro teams who run a wheel from a maker who doesn't match the tire sponsor.

For the same reason aftermarket wheels for cars are sold without tires.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

How many people buy aftermarket wheels for their cars with CdA in mind?

The point is, they're components and thus are sold that way. Also, CdA isn't everything in regards to wheel speed. For example, I'll gladly give up some high yaw angle wheel performance for low Crr. There's a reason I don't run the narrowest Specialized Turbos on my race wheels, despite my having data that they are VERY aero ;-)

As pointed out above, there are too many variables on the use cases for the customers (and their preferences) to make sense for them to supply tires with the wheels. How about tubes? Will they all be supplied with latex tubes?...or, maybe set up tubeless using Vittoria Corsa Speeds, if that's what the wheel manufacturer says is "fastest"? What if most customers don't want to use that particular tire or tube(less) setup?

BTW, there are some wheelbuilders that WILL supply tires if you like when you purchase wheels...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Mavic includes their tubeless tire with their wheels. Presumably, Zipp wheels are designed with a particular Zipp tire in mind.

Aside from that, there are other considerations besides aero to keep in mind when choosing tire size - primarily comfort and terrain.

You're confusing Slowtwitch with the real world. I can honestly say I've never heard of anyone optimizing specific tires to wheels outside of this forum.

I have a friend who is a recently retired pro cyclist that now owns a bike shop. I'm guessing I would get a confused stare if I asked him which was the "correct' tire for a wheel.

"Why wouldn't they, if that's what they optimized their wheel around?"


Zipp would make more money selling Zipp tires with their wheels.

A lot of companies don't sell tires with their wheels to avoid the jointly owned Zipp/Hed patent on a wheel/tire system. Why Zipp doesn't include their own (Hutchinson made) tires is beyond me. AFAIK, Zipp originally designed the Firecrest around a 23mm tire (which tire unknown), then the 23mm GP4000, then they spent time in the tunnel developing their own tread pattern to act as a "trip" which is now what they use on their Hutchinson made tires.

Mavic's new road UST wheels come with tires that are actually pretty darn good.

Aside from the obvious that there is no one magic tire (we'd see concrete sales pitches if that were true), another issue is logistics. Frankly, if you're looking for a reason, this is probably it. If you go from selling just a wheel to selling a wheel/tire combo, you have significantly complicated your inventory and shipping process. Add even more work and cost if you are going to sell the combo "assembled" i.e with the tire (and now a tube) mounted.

All of this is certainly doable (see any bike for sale in a bike shop . . .) but what is in it for the wheel maker selling just wheels? In a market where 99% of the buyers are perfectly happy to save $50 on wheel and buy their own favorite $100 set of tires, you're asking the wheel manufactures to take on some pretty hefty costs and headaches which will give them little or no benefits or increased profits.

Of course they would. So, why didn't they optimize their wheels to work best with their tires?

The point is this: someone goes to the effort to do some 3rd party testing of a bunch of wheels. Immediately, everyone cries foul because, of course, you can't test all the wheels with the same tires since they were all optimized to work best with a specific (presumably different) tire, and using something else is unfair to the manufacturer of the wheel. So, if each wheel is such a little princess, and can only be its best with a specific tire at a specific pressure and it's the wheel/tire "system" that we should be testing... well, then sell it as an f-ing wheel/tire system, then.

I like the idiot sticker idea......

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Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.

Well, not CdA, but performance none the less. I race a Miata and when I bought my track wheels it included the tires, valve stems, and lug nuts. You could opt out of any of those, but that is what the manufacturer suggested and what most people purchase. Today I'm simply running an updated version of the original tire. Lug nuts and valves are still the same.

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"...the street finds its own uses for things"

"So, why didn't they optimize their wheels to work best with their tires? "


Too expensive.

How many people buy aftermarket wheels for bicycles with CdA in mind?

I use my 404's for road racing. That points towards one niche of tires. Others might use them for TT's which points to another niche. I also race on the track and maybe I want to use that front 404 on a smooth wooden indoor velodrome. That's a different tire.

There is no one tire that is the right choice.

Also, a good set of tires can add another $200 or so to the price of the wheels. Why would Zipp want to make the price of their wheels $200 more when the selected tires might not be the ones I want?

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Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava

Good idea in theory. In reality, I'd imagine there are plenty of wheels on which the fastest tire is something other than the tire which it was supposedly optimized for.

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

Because aerodynamics isn't the only factor when considering tires.

Per Kevin above, I've used different tires on my Flo 60s for training, crits, time trial, gravel mashing, and track. I don't *think* any were idiot decisions.

People use Zipp 303 tubulars for cross racing , crit racing , triathlon and road racing ... which tire should they provide?

Yes, I get it. People use aero wheels for more than TT/Tri. If you follow the 'spirit' of the question (tire/wheel impact on CdA) you'll get that I'm not talking about cross racing, for example. I never suggested that selling wheels with tires should be the only way the wheel manufacturers sell their wheels, but there should, IMO, be the option to buy a manufacturer-recommended tire/wheel package. This is probably more applicable to TT/Tri-specific wheels. I'd venture to guess that there just aren't a lot of people cross racing with a Zipp 808 front or disc rear, for example. There are certain wheels for which CdA is the main differentiating factor. If I'm spending $3-4K on a race wheelset, I shouldn't have to get my Ouija board out to figure out what tires to use with those wheels.

Lol asking on slow twitch instead of taking 5 minutes to call the wheel companies and ask them

now people are getting into strawman arguments. The original question was predicated on the most aero (lowest Cda), so the best TT tire. Yes people may use 303s for CX, I think its understood you wouldn't use a road tire for this.

However, a better optimization would be lowest watts and consider Cda and rolling resistance in aggregate (as I think someone already alluded to).

Zipp could certainly recommend the most lowest watt tire for their wheels and it would actually probably even make sense to offer this as a bundle. Also sell the wheels separately.

Well then anyone who doesn't want to use their tyres will be less likely to buy their wheel won't they? Maybe they create a nice aero tyre/wheel combo but the RR of their tyre isn't top of the pile and that's a priority for the customer.

You seem to be obsessed with aerodynamic testing as though that's all anyone considers when choosing to buy a tyre. I think you're being completely blind to the fact that aerodynamics is only one factor and even season to season, frame to frame or race to race, plenty people will prioritise differently and may validly choose different tyres as a result - that's if they even think about it. Most aren't too bothered. You do realise most people buying a deep section wheel don't research which one is best? They just buy one around the depth they see others using in a model that's easily available at a price they're okay, and perhaps in a brand they think is prestigious if appearances are part of their thinking.

As another poster mentioned, Mavic wheels come with tyres. That would have put me off buying Mavic when I was last in the market because I didn't really like their last generation tyres (Yksion Pros). My Canyon Ultimate came with these fitted and I took them off after a couple of months. I would have been rather annoyed at having the price of tyres I didn't want built into my wheel purchase, whether it was at cost or not.

It is fair to question the choice of tyre to pair with a wheel for aerodynamic testing. But it's silly to oversimplify and state that there's a "correct" tyre for each wheel. If you think every wheel has a "correct" tyre then I think you're missing a huge chunk of what all these discussions are about. Your post readsd as "I find this complicated, so please just tell me the answer". Sorry, it is complicated, because there isn't a single answer without a much more specific question. The good news is that it's not life or death. If you don't want to worry about it, don't. Just pick a wheel and a tyre and go ride. If you're not optimised, you'll survive.

Obviously wheel mfg don't want to endorse competitors tyres but theres also the problem that whats fastest will not only depend on optimal cda but depending on your race also on rolling resistance and to some extend properties like handling, grip etc. Some people also require tubeless or have expectations with regards to minimum puncture resistance. Seeing how these tyre+wheel combos can only ever be horses for courses you would have conduct thousands of tests and end up handing customers a very complicated chart with dozens of combinations.