8th in Elite.

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"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke


smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com

to me theres two divisions, pro or amateur (age group). if hes not making a living doing this he has every right to race as an age grouper.

either way, your time will be your time and your overall placing will be your overall placing regardless of what category your buddy races in. if you really want the award, id say start to train your booty off and win that award from your buddy. let it serve as a 'carrot' to improve your performance. good luck. remember, you cant control your competitor's performance, only yours.

Personally, I'd rather finish last in the winning breakaway in a pro-1,2 race than win the master's 35+ race. Around here yhe former would be a more accurate reflection of my suffering. What if there's a sandbagger in my race? For me a "sandbager" is a domestic pro who decides to show up for a podunk bike race in BFE, that I happen to be in, and just tear the race to shreds (It's just a workout for him, you know, keep the legs loose). But that's not really sandbagging...it's un-fu**ing-fair, that's what it is!!!

Sadly, I don't qualify to race master's 35+...Yet. We'll see how I think in a couple of years.

Of course, with master's racing being what it is these days, you'd think it was just a shorter pro-1,2 race.

It's gotta be something in the water.

I'd rather be 8th in elite. Although someone who consistently is the top AGer in high level national races can do quite well for themselves. As well if not better than a second tier pro.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

8th elite

and although I am a lousy pro, I never even considered racing age-group.

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http://www.wimdedoncker.be

I would much rather be 8th elite. However, I will race as an age grouper in HFP races.. I don't understand the whole elite wave thing, I guess i am not a pro, I wish they just had an overall division. USAT doesn't rank your races where you race elite.

I've seen friends wrestle with this question (although I don't think the term sandbagger applies if you're talking about just elites and not pros)...

Most of my friends (and I would agree) race elite, unless there is a very special reason not to (say they want to compare race times with some other age-grouper rival and not take advantage of an earlier start, clear course, etc). Or if there is a very special prize or slot given to the winning age-grouper...

What I enjoy seeing is the pro who gets into Kona as a "pro" and then tries to enter the age-group competition or vice versa. When they get caught just before the race (and WTC seems to do a pretty good job at this) it is not very pretty!

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FIST Certified Fitter
Salt Lake City, Utah

Hmm, 1st age group or 8th overall; tough call:

1 RICH BOSTWICK WILLIAMSTOWN 36 M 1:22:35 MALE WINNER 1/178 M
2 BROCK BUTLER MANASQUAN 27 M 1:24:08 2nd MALE 2/178 M
3 MICHAEL SULLIVAN WESTMONT 32 M 1:24:29 3rd MALE 3/178 M
4 SCOOGIE SNYDER GWYNEDD VLY 36 M 1:24:49 4th MALE 4/178 M
5 KEVIN PARKS COLTS NECK 39 M 1:24:49 5th MALE 5/178 M
6 ERIC SCHAADING GALLOWAY 38 M 1:25:25 1/29 M3539 6/178 M
7 STEPHEN DELMONTE WILDWOOD 27 M 1:26:08 1/11 M2529 7/178 M
8 KENNETH LEHNER TINTON FALLS 46 M 1:26:26 1/22 M4549 8/178 M


:-)

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"Go yell at an M&M"

In tri's the elite category is sometimes a deterrent to me. 1st if you race elite it doesn't count towards your USAT ranking (I know some people don't care about this). 2nd sometimes there are very few people in the elite wave so you only have a few people to race against. I see someone else mentioned the HFP races. I did one last year and comtemplated racing elite. There were only 3 or 4 females in the elite wave and I personally would rather race with a bigger bunch of people than that.

well, not to come down on you here, ( this is nothing personal so please don't take offense) but why does this 'piss you off' so much?

because you are not the fastest in your age group? so everyone above your level should get a pro card?

you know, being a pro is not always so glamorous. some people actually have full-time jobs, train when they can, but perhaps have an endurance background ( swimming/running etc) and are just plain gifted. and they have to pay for everything just like the rest of us. so in this case are they obligated to get a pro-card? also in this case this athlete might not be able to really train to their potential, I'm sure they wouldn't want to go up against top tier pros ( also out of respect for the pros) unless they are fully prepared.

I say be happy with your 2nd place. having faster people to compete with makes you faster. being mad because you can't take the top of the podium. it's kind of like people racing in a special category, or smaller age groups, just so everyone can be a winner.

I think its more important to consider the Overall or Masters Overall over an age-group placing relative to those that are good enough to be in overall contention.

On a related topic, I have a buddy that is about 195 pounds and since almost no events require Clydes to weigh-in, he always races Clydes to make sure he comes home with hardware. The Clydesdale cutoff is 200 pounds. He is clearly under 200 pounds, but knows the race directors will not challenge it because its usually just a volunteer or Active.com form that he fills out to register in the Clydes division. He considers it insurance incase he doesn't place overall. I think he's cheating on several aspects. For a while it kind of pissed me off, but then I learned that he has developed a reputation for being less than honest. BTW, he also sandbagged his cycling category to ensure he could come home with hardware in that sport also. But, since we are all on to him, he's has lost respect in the local race community. Its just not fair to the legit Clydesdale that doesn't place because of this guy's dis-honesty.

Perhaps "pisses me off" is a bit harsh. Actually, I don't really care other than the fact that we do train together and I'll like a piece of him during the race. ;o) I know he can compete with the big boys, but it seems like he would rather be king of playground. A triathlon version of "Tin Cup".

On the larger scale, I hear about people "sandbagging" in order to get prizes. "Elite AG" is not the pro cat as other's have mentioned. It's a separate division that doesn't dish out USAT points. My season is always scheduled, but this situation came up last week "we" turned a registration and the $%@#$# went AG and I went Elite. Urghh.....

age grouper. it just seems more fun.

Ken,

What race was this??

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Brian Shea
http://www.PersonalBestNutrition.com
Open-Water/Masters Swimming at the Jersey Shore:
Monmouth County NJ Ocean Swim/Masters Workouts

Personally, I'd rather finish 8th in elite than win my age group. Don't know how satisfying it would be to know that I was fastest among the second stringers, really.

It might be worth keeping in mind that not all races even have an elite/pro category.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Yeah, like I'm going to tell you, so you can show up and drop me even further down the standings. You did us all a favor by posting your race schedule, so we can avoid you like the plague.

Actually, it was the Jersey Genesis Triathlon in S. Jersey. Low key race, very well run. If you'd have been there, you might have changed your rank a bit:

17 AA BUTLER BROCK 27 NJ 92.3053

18 AA SHEA BRIAN 28 NJ 92.3017

(not really, as it isn't a USAT race, and didn't affect the rankings)

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"Go yell at an M&M"

I'd settle for 8th in my age group in a group of at least 9.

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don't just do something..... sit there

The race dynamics of the elite wave is usually very different than an AG wave. Maybe this guy gets extra motivation from passing earlier waves. Maybe he'd be racing pretty much by himself in the elite wave (at some races, the elite wave is pretty small). Maybe he doesn't like the visibility of racing elite wave - it's much clearer how far behind the leader you are when you race elite wave.

I'd rather be 8th elite. For me, an AG award doesn't mean much if 10 from my AG raced elite and were faster than me.

Congratulations on a fine race result...but, someone named Scoogie beat you? B-)

Personally, I simply consider it a good race when I've been able to pace myself well enough to know I've given it my all. I really don't care if I miss a placing by 1/2 second, or 2 minutes. If I did all I could, I'm happy.

That's the only thing that bugs me about the Iron distance race I did last fall. I got cut badly on my foot at the beginning of the swim, and didn't think I'd be able to finish because of the injury, so I went out a little hard on the bike. After it became apparent that I was actually going to be able to run on the injury, I thought I'd better hold back a lot in order to survive the run (especially since I'd never run a marathon before, and the hills were killers), and I ended up running the last three miles in 23 minutes because I had so much left in the gas tank. That race wasn't satisfying, because the pacing was so bad. I know I left 45+ minutes out there on the course. I'll probably do it again just to get it closer to "right", then, stick to the shorter stuff for which I'm physically better built.

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Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)

HA! Thanks for the ego boost. With the way you're progressing though, I may be avoiding you. I just thought I missed a local race already.

As for Brock, we had a good laugh at the USAT ranking as it probably equates to about a :15sec difference over the course of an IM. Funny how the ranking turned out so close considering we live 5mins from one another.

Are you heading to DMan or just saving yourself for EM?

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Brian Shea
http://www.PersonalBestNutrition.com
Open-Water/Masters Swimming at the Jersey Shore:
Monmouth County NJ Ocean Swim/Masters Workouts

We gave Kevin (who finished behind Scoogie with the same time) grief for weeks about it. Still do, for that matter.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

IMO

I'd like to see Age Groupers who place in the top three in three or more events default up to elite status. This way they get the recognition for their accomplishments while other age groupers can continue to pursue the top ten, etc. The process could start over each year based on performance (injuries may require re-stating racing ability).

Unfortunately, triathlon has enough trouble with tracking race performances that this is probably unlikely.

Maybe having additional qualifier slots for elite racers would reduce the number who race in the AG categories.

Just a thought.

-Andrew

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Ban Wetsuits !! Wetsuitsareforwimps.org/net/gov

Brian, when you reach my age (47 next year), you'll find that the term "progressing" has long since been replaced by "damage control".

It's Eagleman or bust, baby. I may do the DMan sprint just to get a triathlon under my race belt before June, though.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

I faced this dilemma - won my age group one year, decided to race elite the next. Sadly (NOT!) Simon Lessing and Richard Allen showed up.

If I had to do it again, I'd win each age group once.