The live broadcast mentioned that multiple "sources" noted that is how he always looks when he runs. I'm not sure I believe it considering all the head swaying and misery I saw from Lionel yesterday but it sounds like he's one of those people who muscles through runs. I can't imagine the amount of energy lost from all that movement though.

And, yes, Matt Hanson looked like a god damn gazelle out there.

I would say Andrew's run is "uglier" but just because of his proportions. I admire him for lumbering through and getting faster!

Interesting. As fast as Lionel is on the run I would have assumed a very efficient running form. I'm sure the "ugliness" was amplified yesterday because he was hurting. I wonder if this is something he and Barrie are working on. Although swimming should be his lowest hanging fruit right now. If IMTX is any indication for Kona then Lionel has got his work cut out for him.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

Ok Toth - what's your take on this?

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He might have very good running economy without looking like it. It seems to be very hard to actually tell who is using less oxygen in running and why so for someone running that well usually(becoming one of the very best runners in the sport in a short time) it might be a mistake to mess too much with it. A sign of bad running economy might have been if he was a lot better on the bike relatively speaking, which he's not, so I'm inclined to think he's doing ok with his running style.

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BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se

Interesting. As fast as Lionel is on the run I would have assumed a very efficient running form//

I think we need to see him running a 2;40 pace marathon to really judge how he looks running. Running 3;11 yesterday has to be about as bad as it gets for him, so of course he looked like shit. I was mentioning it early, but then he was running fairly fast, but looked to me to be struggling. As it turned out he was, so I'm guessing he looks a ton better than even the early stages we saw him yesterday.


Andrew just always looks like he is fighting his way out of being trapped in a refrigerator. Doesn't matter how fast he is running. And another guy that looks like he is trying to see how far he can extend his stride, Faris is no picnic to watch. In my day we had Dave Scott, he looked like and uncoordinated flailer, but all these guys manage to run pretty fast, so looks are not everything..

I haven't seen Lionel run . I saw andrew at 2011 arizona last 400 m so that doesn't count.

They go fast so they do alot of things correct good bikers tend to stomp and have a high vertical lift hard habit to break. So they doing keep a good flow with ground contact.

Still faster enough to get to Hawaii. .

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
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I've seen them both in person, and yeah, it's pretty ugly, but like was stated, they're both so fast it's in no way a knock on them.
Gonna have to give Starky this one, as when I saw him running it looked like it was effortless to him, yet just plain ugly. Where as when I saw Lionel running it looked like he was putting the hurt down, so I ottributed some of it to that.

That being said, they're both pretty ugly, but they're obviously doing something right. As another point, the kid that won the 5k I was in this weekend has a pretty ugly run as well, yet he went sub 16, so obviously it works for him. Most cases good running form is better than bad, but seeing these outliers always makes me scratch my head. Would love to see barrie chime in on this one.

Monty, I just spent 30 minutes talking to Lionel about yesterday. He said he had nothing on the run and felt flat/dull like he could not apply any force. I asked him about his sodium consumption and he took none other than what he got in Gatorade EF and gels. He said he'll be looking into that pre Kona. He also said he's gonna be working on his alll out 200m swim speed to get on "some feet". Swimming 3.8k solo was not that fun!

Monty, I just spent 30 minutes talking to Lionel about yesterday. He said he had nothing on the run and felt flat/dull like he could not apply any force. I asked him about his sodium consumption and he took none other than what he got in Gatorade EF and gels. He said he'll be looking into that pre Kona. He also said he's gonna be working on his alll out 200m swim speed to get on "some feet". Swimming 3.8k solo was not that fun!

Not surprising after riding a 4;11!! Ya he has to do something about his swim, thought we were going to see some secret weapon from his coach's recent comments. Actually seems to have gone backwards in that regards. That really poor swim was just a step ladder for having a really bad day for him. He of course wants/needs to get to the front of the race on the bike, and his drive then makes him want to break the leaders after that. It is just too much to ask to make up 9 minutes on really good riders and not have to pay a penalty sometime later. And this was not even close, he was toast right off the bike it appeared. And his 3;11(which i think he would categorize as a massive blow up) just backs it up.


If i were him in that exact situation, i would have stair stepped a little slower to the leaders, and used some of the hangers on to help set pace along the way. Then once there, just sit on the group. I mean, he has a great weapon in his run, and could win most heads up battles starting from T2 if on his game. Mark Allen went through this exact same scenario, only he did not have to make up swim time, but just hammered the bike to get big leads into the run. Once he figured out he could outrun anyone on his normal day, his races began at T2. And he had quite a bit of success with this strategy. Lionel could do the same, only he has to really get his swim down so he uses just a few of his matches, and not light ones he does not have.


And absolutely he needs to get some salt, maybe hook him up with Toker. In spite of what some think is all placebo, there is real anecdotal evidence that athletes in hot, long races, do benefit from them. I found it funny that at one point during the race, all 3 pro/ex pro commentators mentioned the connection to heat, cramps, and taking some salt.


I believe he has a great career ahead of him, only thing is how long is it going to take him to get to the pinnacle of it. Took Mark 6 years in Kona, others do it in 1. Be nice to be closer to that one than 6.. (-;

 Every time I see Starkey run all I can think is "Jesus that's horrible"

Of course that's while he's 20 minutes ahead of me, so take that for what it's worth! I would love to look that ugly while going that fast!

You and I are thinking totally alike. I told Lionel that it took Mark Allen 7 Kona's until he got the pacing and nutrition right. WTF is going on? Did you hijack my brain when I was talking with him? Macca also took some time to get the hot and humid racing figured out. Yes, I think we need to get Toker into the picture ASAP!!! Lionel is 27 and has a world of potentially. He alsoo understands that the swim is exactly like a bike race and was a bit frustrated that pool improvements are yet to translate to open water.

I do have to say that his swim time was more than good enough to win, had he burned matches at the appropriate time, maybe. What I mean is, this kid is as good as we've seen come along in a while. To clarify, as good as anyone who came out of no where. Think about that a second. I still have a pretty great feeling that Lionel is the athlete who will challenge Dave and Mark for most titles in Kona. Take your lumps in places like Texas I say.

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Swimmer
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Ever see Paula Radcliffe run? Or Pat Peterson back in the 80s?

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Formerly DrD

Hellriegel ran a 2.46 in Kona and it looked absolutely horrendous. Heck, he's always looked horrendous on the run.

Agreed. Fast is not always pretty.

Edit: I'm not imying either of the guys mentioned in this thread are ugly runners. Haven't watched them enough to make a judgement. I will say that some of the run times that Sanders has laid down both in tris and in stand alone running races are very impressive. With some more long course experience I believe he will be fine.

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Formerly DrD

I thought Thomas looked good running. Definitely looked good when I watched him run to victory at IMC. He was incredible and had great runners gait.

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Adrian in Vancouver

I tend to agree, as long as his coaches and advisers keep things in control. He's 27 and has a solid 12 years of racing ahead IF HE WANTS. Most of the recent talent has spent their youth on ITU (ex: Frodo) so we're not seeing them come to Kona in their mid 20's with a long run ahead. Mark Allen had 6 years to figure things out before he started his run which if I recall ended at 37. LS is entering his long course career early enough by recent standards, but not so early by historical standards. As a Canadian, I am excited by what our boys could contend for in Kona between LS, Symonds, and McMahon...and as I said in another thread, none of these guys have any Kona pedigree YET, but its going to be about as exciting as Kona can get since the days of Peter Reid+Heather Fuhr+Lori Bowden winning on the big island.

I think it's really disrespectful to class Lionel as an ugly runner the guy has run under 70 minutes at the end of a 70.3 on numerous occasions and runs with the best guys in the world at that distance regularly. He's a completely different league on the run to starky.


As for Saturday's race unless you were there you can't judge his run form on that race. The conditions were horrendous when I left at 5pm it was 91f and 90% humidity, at 2-3 pm it was probably even hotter and add on the direct sunlight as well.

I think he's a class act.

Speaking of class acts what about that British guy who finished second? You guys are supposed to get skin cancer the moment the sun comes out!!! Good luck in Bolton and I assume Kona too! Should I put IMUK on the target list? Will the sun come out for that, or did they ban sun from the entire island other than Wimbledon week?

The impression i have is that Lionel run style is more natural to him(i believe he even admitted that he always had that "ugly" run style) but because of Starky's body position and form, it looks like he trained to run that way. Does it makes sense to anyone?

Did you get some kind of Facebook "Look what people were talking about 4 years ago" alert to resurrect this thread?

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