I advise strength sessions specifically for endurance athletes to be done right before or after a SBR session for economy.
A solid 15 to 20 minute session 2 or 3 times a week works great. No hard core lifting, but functional and core moves. Works great as you are already in workout clothes and sweaty.
I recommend core work after any type of workout.
Anything that involves impact, only around workouts less than 60 minutes.
I like afterwards as you don't need a warm up period. Ready to go.

If you are going old school lifts with free weights, I would do them stand alone or before an easy sessions under an hour. If you're hitting weights for an hour and really taxing yourself, you have to be more mindful when you do them as they can cause issues with intense and longer workouts. Typically spaced a day out from long and intense stuff.

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Ryan
http://www.SetThePaceTriathlon.com
http://www.TriathlonTrainingDaddy.com
I got plans - https://www.trainingpeaks.com/...dotcom#trainingplans

I'd have you do Upper on Wednesdays and a lower on Fridays
4.2.5

So Freil talks about Strength Support more in sports specific terms. For him, and I've asked directly there is almost nothing you can do for swimming. I do Chest and Back stuff so my arms don't shrivel, because being a total athlete is important to life in general. But I've sort of built my split into that, the idea is you do a lot more sessions in off-season or specific prep and when you're peaking you're down to 1 session. Not really looking for high volume for hypertrophy and more to build power.

Examples from Triathlete's Training Bible for Bike Strength are variations of the Squat and Deadlift, for run based training [Power Clean] Clean and Jerk, Snatch, Power Step-Ups. Personally, if you do an Olympic movement go to a few classes at an Olympic gym to learn form. He says power-clean in the book, but a power clean is an accessory movement for olympic weightlifting.

With how low volume you're currently at you could probably do three sessions of 20-30 minutes in the evenings and as you build towards race go to two and then one two weeks away from race week and nothing the week of.

I'd say if you're a novice, and exploring. Focus on power movements (Bench, Squat, Deadlift) and their accessories while adding in some back like rows and pullups.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

That is the riddle :-)

I have an extensive background in strength training, but came into endurance training in 2004 or picked up cycling as a serious hobby post retirement. As I became more interested in improving the cycling side and still desiring to keep up with strength training I was struggling with exactly what you are asking. It really came down to me experimenting and refining my training schedule to see what fit the best in this sort of cross fit type of mix. I could point to some of my blog posts, but it is exclusive to my goals, logistics and life schedule. It factors in life stress and nutrition that suit my goals and those are not necessarily a watt/kg or watt/cda factor. Those do matter to me to some degree, but I do not compete in anything so I eat and train unlike a competitive endurance athlete. I do not have an off season so I cross train like this year round and have been doing so since 2004 (I've been in strength training for 36 years with only scheduled breaks twice a year).

The riddle is tied to recovery and CNS fatigue if both training aspects are progressive. I can only say for my particular goals I have not solved the riddle, but I have improved in my schedule by watching trends in compiled training data over the years. By doing this I have found a path that sort of works and the result is a type of cross fitness, but would not win or place in strength or endurance. However, it has been a successful path and at 55 I still have decent strength and have improved considerably in cycling (although at the moment not too good due to a heavy workload in 2018. Starting to ramp up the cycling training again at this time)

Applies to me only
Written in 2016 this is still my current schedule
Written in 2018 some observations and thoughts

Best wishes.

Tagging this thread as I too wonder this. I suspect many of us wonder how to do everything.

I am trying to schedule the weights the day of a ride, as far apart as possible. While I would rather ride in the am on "fresh" legs and ride on tired legs, reality will require this to be reversed. Only in the am at the gym can I get to the weights without massive wait (wasted) time.

narrow your lifting down to 3 lifts
1 compound lower body exercise
1push
1pull

2 sets fairly heavy
in & out in< 25min, <20 if you super set

You can always substitute with push ups/pulls ups at home if you wish

In the past I've given my athletes goals such as 150 push ups for the week. Waiting for the shower to warm up, bang out 12, got the micro going for :25 bang out 8

If you've got a pull up bar at home same thing. bang out 150 a week. heading out to do some composting bang out 7 pull ups, heading back in bang out 5 carry on

maybe that helps maybe that doesn't

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

This thread will only end in more confusion for you. Just do it when you can and chart the impacts and adjust accordingly.

This is exactly what I do -- 1 day a week deadlifts (working up to 1 set in the 3-5 rep range), followed by bench/chin-up superset; 1 day a week squats (working up to 1 heavy set), followed by standing overhead press/pull-up superset.

If you keep the volume (working up to 1-2 heavy sets) low and intensity (%1RM) relatively high with appropriately long rest intervals for the 1 or 2 heavy sets of the main compound lifts (2-3 mins), after an initial adjustment period of a week or two you should not be sore.

With some warm-up/mobility work, it takes me 30 minutes, and I run to and from the gym for easy/recovery running miles, often with a detour on the way there.

in my 3rd year of balancing winter weights and cycling (don't run much or swim at all). i'm 51, so my recovery is not very good anymore.
i have had big issues with what i call interference where going hard on the bike hurts the lifting OR lifting hard slows the bike.

i make one activity my priority so that i can maximize gains from that activity. from Nov - end of Feb it is the weights. i only try to ride hard if it is about 40 hours after a lift and if i dont try to lift hard for 24 hours after a hard ride.
when the priority is the bike i find i can ride hard within 1 hour of lifting or not again until about 36 hours later. when the priority is the bike I only do 1 hard lift/week.

i agree with the CNS thoughts i saw above. i think i'll dull my gains from the weights if i don't let the CNS recover enough between sessions by riding too hard on the bike. as others have said - its never a bad time to do core work.

i have found it frustrating to schedule things such that you allow proper recovery, but allowing proper recovery does seem to let me do the workouts better. i just have continually cut back on how much volume and intensity i do on the bike while weights are big for these few months.
good luck.

Right now with the 100/100 going, and me doing most on a treadmill, it works out great and efficient to just do 15 to 20 minutes after running. All my gyms and HOA spots have both, so not an issue. And now traveling, every hotel has the same set ups..

For me it is just 2x12reps of different lifts, balancing upper and lower on different days. Just start slow and work through the soreness you get. I might add one more set later of heavier and lower rep stuff, when all the connecting stuff gets a bit stronger..

IMO - on your brief description you seem have a good perspective on this and are thinking it through.

wow. i read that jan 2018 post. that was very enlightening. your experience is humbling, but also very informative.
my why in lifting = reduce my losses from about 20 secs out to maybe 3 minutes (now at 51 years old).
i did not find any bump in threshold, but i found i could hit very near peak 20 sec- 2 minute spiky efforts even late into rides/races
while lifting more intensely in the winter - i can't even do 85% thresh on doms. the only thing i can do is high cadence (low force) stuff if i want to get anywhere near threshold.
my how = 6-8 reps at a weight that i struggle to maintain form with. from your charts and explanations -- it is prob not the correct ratio of 1 rep max BUT it is close to my 6-8 rep max and it definitely produces nasty doms for this 135 lb old man.
i only lift legs with intensity - i don't really do any arm or core work other than light weight to maintain (some?) function.
i try to lift like that about every 3 days.

as you alluded - i am am adjusting my schedule completely based on recovery. i occas need to schedule an extra day between lifts if a ride gets too hard or usually b/c sleep is not good enough.

2 questions if you are willing to share some experience:
1.is there value to a higher rep/less weight session if not completely recovered on the 3rd day OR just wait an extra day to do the standard 6-8 rep x 4-5 sets regular workout.
2.this question also extends into the riding season. I only plan on lifting the usual winter hard 1x/wk or 1x/10 days. is it better to lift light in between or not at all?
sincerely, rick

I strength train before swimming, out of convenience, because the gym is across the hall from the pool, at the sports complex I go to. I'm not going to make separate trips.

I always cycle at home or outdoors, before heading to the gym/pool, or cycle on different days.

I also run before hitting the gym/pool, or run on different days.

I'm no expert, but have been at this for nearly 40 years, and the biggest mistake I see endurance athletes make, is lifting like power lifters or bodybuilders. I lift for injury prevention, peripheral muscle strength, and possibly slight strength gains in major muscles, also needed for endurance performance. But as soon as my lifting interferers with my endurance training or performance, I know it's time to back off the strength training a bit.

With the above said, the fastest I've ever been, and during the time I set all my PR's, I wasn't lifting at all. But I was also injured more often, and felt like ass all the time. The slowest I've been, was during times I was lifting the most, and setting my gym PR's. It was during those times I felt the best, and was never injured. The balance between the extremes is a personal choice.

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Athlinks / Strava

“Cross training”- is like adding a new exotic food to your diet. It is certainly helpful in small doses.

Strength training- is like vitamins. Go ahead and try them. Maybe you have a condition that they will help.
But don’t expect too much.

From other thread:
Strength training is like vitamins.
1) There is little evidence that it “works” in a general way.
It usually does NOT make you faster, more able to do a days hard labor or “healthier” in a general way.
2) It might help in specific situations.
BUT might also hurt in specific situations.
3) There is a large industry of flakes and quacks peddling it.
4) The general public believes the promotional information put out by flakes and quacks, rather than intelligent information put out by professionals and or their own common sense.
5) Many people seek to replace natural nutrition (or exercise) with fake nutrition (or exercise).
Most people are constantly surprised that they are fat, malnourished, slow and unable to do real world activities.

1. I do not think there is value based on your description. I would wait.
2. If you do strength train in season I would only do it 1x/wk if you can maintain it without impacting your primary training.

In terms of getting into that ~85%+ of threshold with DOMS it is very discomforting. What I have found in my schedule is training legs early Monday morning and then do an active recovery light spin that evening. 8 out of 10 times I have found it to help relieve the DOMS to some degree. I have also experimented using the Compex Elite in massage mode, but I have found the 60 minute light spin to help alleviate that discomfort a little. When I hit the high Tempo/Sweet Spot/Thresh it is still discomforting, but I can usually grit my teeth and make it through. Each night after it gets a little better in terms of discomfort at those intensities. I can't imagine doing true strength training twice a week while also mounding up fatigue with endurance training unless it was kept at Endurance and below.

Not sure if my response helps at all. My last post to you is that you are thinking it through and that is better than just winging it. Winging it may result in nothing other than wearing you out. :-)

Above all my main principle in help guiding me in what I do is, consistency is king. If I do this how it will effect the other? Can I maintain that and be consistent day to day?

I did provide a response, but I also broke one of my golden rules about giving advice when I do not know all there is to know. It hit me this morning and felt that I should say ignore that post because there are too many variables for me to give you a decent thought. That is why in my first post to you was kudos because you were thinking things through. No one knows you better than you and only a coach that gets to know a lot more about you can really chime in if needed.

Just keep thinking things through and observe trends. The moment you think things are going negative make the necessary adjustments.

This is just my opinion about training to win. As much as I love lifting and strength training I am a bigger proponent for sports specific training. It is the most efficient and fail safe approach. All other things that are added in may be useful to some degree if they do not hinder one from hitting training targets/goals and disrupt consistency.

So I was thinking about this thread and others that mention strength training and how folks recommend to do strength training after an SBR session for whatever reason. As person with varying sports and work backgrounds, I was reminded by Ross Edgley when he was on with Joe Rogan.

When it comes to Strength you need to find a time where you can do it separately to gain max adaptation. Basically, get decent recovery time in between your workouts. Strength training shouldn't be like a brick. Just like most people would take 4-8 hours off between a long run and trainer session. Need to do the same with Strength Training so that you can receive the maximum effect from that dose of training.

Basically....you can be a great olympic lifter and still swim around Great Britain.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

 
Hi All,

Interesting topic, being 51+ strength training is becoming more important to me! Here's a quick overview of my approach.

My strength training is mainly plyometrics or/and using resistance bands. You'll be amazed what strength training you can do with resistance bands for specific disciplines. Also the bands are easily portable as well!

I try to avoid any strength training near any specific swim/bike/run drills, as loading the fatigue before an interval session means the quality of the session may be compromised. Therefore i try to keep upper body strength away from lower body skill drills (bike and run) and lower body away from upper body skill drills (swimming).

On the otherhand, i'm ok doing recovery swim/bike/run sessions after a strength session or zone 2 endurance loaded with strength fatigue to simulate a 70.3 load.

If you're trying gain max adaptation from lifting then I fully agree. But for most triathletes I don't think that's the case. Certainly in my case it's the key S, B or R sessions where I want max adaptation. Any strength work I do is for injury prevention and health reasons (good to maintain muscle mass and functional strength as I get older). So as long as I'm not so tired that my form is impacted and it's dangerous to lift, I'm OK with sacrificing a bit of the benefit. Because I'm already trying to fit in 2 SBR sessions most days, and no way can I fit in a third session. What I do try to do is lift before SBR, but not before a key session. E.g. I'll lift and then do an easy/recovery run/ride (doesn't work for swimming, swimming after lifting just feels horrible).

I periodize the wt training just like the SBR. I've been convinced by the data on muscle loss from aging and improved running economy that wt training is valuable. I am lifting the same amount of wt now as 10 years ago. The good news is no loss of strength, the bad is no gains either. That said I only lift 25-30 minutes per session, perhaps 80 minutes/week. If you're on the fence if wt training is useful, look at Alan Webb (http://citiusmag.com/...ht-training-details/) in addition to the other data floating out there. I'm not so sure that strength training is useful for cycling or swimming in young folks.

I'll agree with Rick that DOMS can kill workouts later in the week. But I've found that the effects are worst when I first get serious about lifting in a training block and then are less over time. So I start lifting well before Jan 1. By the time I've got key workouts to do I'm usually able to tolerate them while lifting. I also think of the run workouts as "key" and sacrifice some power on the bike. Some bike sets start out with a goal, then get redirected to spinning sessions when the legs fail.

Periodized for me is
Nov -March: 2 sessions/wk heavy wts. Heavy is 3-4 sets of what I can do 6-7 times. I'll do both upper and lower Monday afternoons. Then heavy legs Thursday before masters b/c my pool has a good squat rack. I fit in one other session of upper body work sometime in the week. The rest of the schedule is usually Mon-run(am), lift (pm), Tues-swim(am), bike (pm), Wed-run, Thurs-lift&swim(am), Fri-varies, Sat-long run, Sun-long bike. If I'm pressed for time I'll do the legs and not the upper body.
April: body wt only tapering for the marathon,
May-Sept: depends on the calendar each year, but most likely body wt stuff or perhaps 1 heavy leg session/wk if there's no races for a while.

My 2 cents , possibly worth less than that.

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Brian
“Eat and Drink, spin the legs and you’re going to effin push (today).” A Howe

The last several posts have some good insight and from what I read, authentic experiences based on years of observation in my own training and helping others. There are challenges and each of us have to weigh out the pros and cons and the risks and rewards. Juggling both aspects of what I see as two antagonistic types of training is certainly a challenge. For me it is a bit easier in the sense that I am retired from competition since 1993 and I come to ST from the opposite side where strength training is still my primary training. Being as fresh as possible for each training session potentially results in positive adaptation, but that is more challenging for the endurance athlete than it is just a strength competitor. Another factor is how different each of us are and some are so gifted genetically that they can tolerate more than others in terms of life and training stress management. We cannot always paint with a broad brush in terms of giving advice.

The advantage that I have is:
1. I don't compete so I do not have seasons. If something happens mid summer no big deal. Meaning if strength training interferes with cycling it doesn't matter as much.
2. I eat for strength training, whereas, it is highly beneficial for an endurance athlete to be trim/lean/light and on the bike to have good CdA. I also have more trouble getting lower in aero with more bulk and more muscle around my shoulders and neck.

Of all aspects to consider and the greatest challenge for me has been recovery time. It appears that each of us are handling combining the different types of training stress differently and that is to be expected. Our goals are different and our life schedules are different. From that we each have to formulate our own game plan. I have stated my schedule on my blog, but I would be the first to tell any of you do not follow my plan because I do not compete and I am primarily focused on strength. My nutrition schedule is different and I am not as as concerned with watts/kg and watts/cda as some of you need to be.

Long ago I was kind of snobby in the sense I would be one of those that would say, "You need to follow this study as published" and then I saw many of these athletes training in many different ways because training in life is far different than training in a lab. Some sports physiologists have no ability to coach because they cannot comprehend that folk work for a living, have kids, a household to manage, have financial stresses, have different views that range between training to win and training to be healthy. I am not as rigid about all of this as I once was. I am certainly grateful to be enjoying training now and my training these days is more eclectic and balanced between strength and endurance.

Saying that I still believe the most efficient path for those wanting to climb the ranks in competition is sport specific training. As a strength training advocate most of the time, I do not think that for endurance that strength training is a prerequisite. There have been too many that have stood on the podium with zero strength training and I believe this will continue to be true. I understand some say they need it, but not all need it and many will be highly competitive without it especially if they are time constrained.

I appreciate those who are full on competitive and focused in sports specific training and I also appreciate those who desire just to be balanced.

weights focus throughout the year with respect to VLaMax:
https://www.velonews.com/2019/02/training/fast-talk-ep-67-what-is-vlamax-with-sebastian-weber_483349


listening to this it seems like focusing on weights alters aerobic ability/peaking. as a cyclist (and an older one at that!) the good ol lift heaviest and most frequently Nov-Mar seems like it fits this seasonal pattern. though there was advice about converting weights to aerobic ability (tony martin example of sweet spot lower cadence high force to convert some of those fibers for more aerobic efficiency), i did not see anything about converting weights to anaerobic ability (what helps win races when most hills are 5 mins or less for me).


as to the original post -- i do continue to struggle with doms the most in the day after -- it just seems counterproductive to push any intensity the next day --but as others have mentioned the more little things i do (the easy ride after the weights, stretching, rolling that night) all help. once every couple weights sessions i try to go a bit bigger on a few lifts and i ALWAYS pay with greater doms - i just tell myself that is where the adaptations occur and concede with a few extra easier bike sessions. looking forward to more on the bike work to use the muscle that ive hopefully strengthened with weights in a month or so as weather considers cooperating in mid atlantic!


will be curious as to what others who are committing to pretty regular winter lifting will see as they transition to more sport specific stuff soon.

^this.
I only do serious strength training in the off-season. In the main season it would kill my key-sessions.
And like this, you integrate your off-season seriously in your training plan.

I'm just about to start a split focus on cycling and strength training myself. I was doing purely triathlon up to early 2017, then stopped and started strength training and a couple of bodybuilding competitions last year. From a S/B/D perspective I worked up to a total of 550kg at 80 kg, and now looking at working back in cycling.

I was lifting 5 days per week, looking at dropping to 3 days per week following the Texas method and cycling 3 days per week. Basically:
Mon: Weights
Tue: Zwift race
Wed: Weights
Thu: Zwift race
Fri: Weights
Sat: Outdoor ride 3 hours
Sun: Day off