I used to organize a group ride where we gave out points and the biggest climbs where in the first half of the ride. The first few climbs we had penalty points for first to the top and bonus points for last to the top. It kept the group ride together for the entire first half. The second half and sprints with regroup points but as the second half was net downhill, it allowed for the FOP people to get some good intervals in, while the longer net downhills allowed for the less strong riders to catch up and stay "attached" during the downhill regroups !!!

But I don't think the phenonon of dropping new riders is anything new. This was there in 1985 when I did my first group rides with the local roadie group (fortunately I had a big enough engine from runnning....did the 1.5 miles in military at 7:08 so 4:40ish miler pace, so kind of hard to drop me on hills due to engine)....it was like that during 90's, 2000s, 2010s and today. Unlike running or swimming where strong athletes are comfortable in their skin because a new rider can't just show up and keep up with top people, that is not the case for biking....riders like Lance, Ritchie Porte, Cam Wurf etc etc etc can come out of other sports, do a few pedal rev's and be up near the top cyclists....so there is an inherent insecurity that fast cyclists have because a good athletes with a solid engine from another sport can quickly become fast at cycling.

Locally, one of my buddies took our Israel premier tech cyclist Michael Woods out when he was an injured 3:50ish miler. Mike climbed the local climb in running shoes and rat traps faster than anyone we knew about, but off his run training and youth hockey.

If you are a big engine newbie you survive the baptism from the local studs and generally put them in their place shortly (I am sure Lucy Charles would have done that too). But if you're an average engine person, that "baptism" culture that exists on the bike pretty well everywhere, can be a tough one to overcome....but that's not a 2022 sport decline problem

I get the impression that you are very US blinkered and you don’t have an international perspective.

In Europe most triathlons are on closed roads, even if it is a small local event it will be on one way closed roads.

It is Christmas chill with the aggression regarding people making choices towards IM. I am not a fan of them but just because someone chooses to race IM doesn’t mean they have an ego.

The sports participation decline is multi-faceted and blaming someone for racing IM isn’t productive.

Does looking at and seeing $15k bike reviews say more about you and the circle that you traverse than anything about how we grow the sport? You've been in the sport for awhile. You have an eye on bike porn and immerse yourself in that world more than a newbie looking at the sport.

How many people looking to come into the sport read Triathlon Magazine Canada or take time to google $15k bike reviews?

When I started the sport in 2008, there were bikes in the $7k+ and wheelsets in the $2k ranges. I read reviews for none of them. I paid attention to none of them. Instead, I looked at bikes and bike reviews in my price range ($1,500 or less). I didn't subscribe or read any bikes or triathlon magazine. I think the newbies that happen to pick up a free copy of Triathlon Magazine Canada off of a table does the same thing I do when I see a Lamborghini advertisement in a car review magazine. We notice it, say that's nice and out of my price range, and move onto the Toyota price range cars. We don't say to ourselves when we see a Lamborghini review or advertisement, "hmm, cars are too expensive these days. I think I'm going to look to public transport or scooters instead." We just move on until we see cheaper cars/bikes ... because there are still plenty of those around

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My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."

In the 1980s windsurfing was a huge growth sport. By the mid-90s it was dead, especially in the US. The big brands got so focused on the extreme aspects that normal sailors could not use the expensive equipment the way it was shown in the magazines. And then came kiting, which is easier to learn and easier on the body than windsurfing. The sport had a recovery (never to the size of the glory years) when Starboard innovated with easy to sail wide boards. There is another growth spurt in water sports happening now with foiling, especially wingfoiling, which is very simple compared to windsurfing and kiting.

Triathlon could learn from this - simple, cheap, fun, and easy will always beat expensive and hard in the market for new users.

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Andrew Inkpen

Exactly. It’s far more interesting for the mag to feature the shiniest most expensive toy and hope it catches the eye of a few. That doesn’t mean everyone expects to buy that offering. I don’t understand why most in this forum seem to think this concept is unique to cycling/tri.

Fair point. I actually don't look for expensive bikes EVER.

I was generally commenting about what Triathlon Magazine Canada had in their packaging which was high end everything, nothing about local racing, all about Ironman.

To be fair, when I started in the sport we actually read what was in these magazines to learn about the sport, or get inspired by professional racing, but that was the only source of information. Now we have all kinds of other sources of info on the internet, that what is in print is likely meaningless, so I see your point.

But does print and online media have any role to also promote the angles of entry level, local racing etc? Does it all need to be Ironman and high end stuff? Because eventually we have no one buying high end and doing Ironman if we don't get entry people in doing local racing. Then the sport dies a slow death from the 40-59 year olds retiring from the sport.

In Spain triathlon is mainly practised by men in the middle of their 40 y o crisis that have enough money to spend it in the gear. Manufacturers and race organicers know it so they milk the cow. The other segments of clients are not profitable.

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Spaniard. Sorry for my english for the sensitive ones :P

You are missing the point. I'm not blaming the person racing IM. I'm saying that you made the choice to race the IM for whatever reason. I'm saying instead of blaming the price of a bike or the price of IM event, let's look at ourselves first and foremost and say "well we are making that choice". For example, how is it that you can race on a cheaper bike for your 1st event, but then suddenly you get into the sport and all jazzed up....why is that not good enough suddenly? Why does the person want to invest more in the sport with better equipment? They don't have too by any means. They are WANTING too. That's the point I'm making. That's the part in this that I want to recognize, that if we are talking about a multi faceted issue, sometimes it's looking in the mirror. and saying you know what I actually have the decision making power in this situation.

So you. missed my point completely, I'm not blaming anyone. I'm saying take personal responsibility for your own personal decisions.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I just rewind back thru my journey and always raced local first but also done several half and full IMs per year. But IM racing is not the be all and end all. Also just went thru all my bikes and upto this year never spent more than $2K CAD on a single bike and no more than $800 on wheels. Only this year I blew thru and spend $2400 on a second hand P3. Along the way raced 3x Kona and 6x 70.3 world's on no where close to top of line gear. Mainly second hand 'fast enough'.

But I don't think the media shares any ideas on what gear which is out there that is fast enough to not hold you back that you can't get on local podiums with enough work.

Kind of related to your post is I think athletes who treat Ironman (and 70.3) as the pinnacle or end-all be-all of the sport doesn't help.

I remember when I got into tri 15-ish years ago. There was a local guy who was a huge tri nut - one of the most visible triathletes in the community. Always talking about tris, training, everyone knew has into tri's, etc. He'd do a couple full IM and a half each year but never, ever did the local spring tri (or any of the trips in nearby cities). It was never a scheduling issue as he would often time go and mill around on race day.

Fast forward to now and we've got a fairly healthy tri community here (when taking into consideration the overall health of the sport). A few decent sized clubs, a good turnout at the morning tai-masters swim, etc. But there are a number of individuals - guys and gals who have been in the sport for years who hang their whole identity on being a triathlete - who never, ever race any of the half-dozen-ish local sprint and olympic tri's in our area. But they are traveling around the country doing a half dozen IM branded events each year. I follow them on Strava so I can see that they are in town during a lot of these races. They just choose to go ride zone 2 or whatever for 3 hours instead.

While I don't begrudge them for their choices, I do think it sends the 'wrong' message when you've got a bunch of the most tenured/dedicated/well-known triathletes in the area and they are not doing these local races. Newbies see this and start to think that these local sprint an olympic races are just for beginners and they need to chase the holy grail of IM races like these vets are doing. Then they do their race, realize they don't want to keep committing all the time/effort/money into 70.3 and 140.6 racing and leave the sport.

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Matt

Something happened that showcased supply and demand to a T. During covid, you know what almost became extinct for bike companies? The tri bike

That thing was cut from the production line from many companies? Why? Because races suddenly went away so the "consumer need" for a new shiny toy suddenly changed.

I think if we as a collective felt powerful enough, there could be change. It was interesting to see that WT just banned certain aspects of the "super shoe", so that suddenly it isn't just a free for all. Small steps like that are good for the sport.

I still think one of the biggest issues with triathlon that it's so damn "numbers" oriented. Like federations freaks out when their numbers drop, but it's like what if the person just took a 2 year break from racing? Like what if they just trained for the health/lifestyle of it and skipped racing? That it's somehow doom and gloom because that person can't be accounted for anymore. We always have to account for something yet maybe that person is doing it the best way for actual true life long term health sustainability.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

So here in the US, we have collegiate sports that just opened up the ability for college athletes to get paid to play (NIL). It's gotten to the point in just 2 years that it's "out of control". You listen to any talk radio or anyone in the sports industry and it's "crazy". The term I keep hearing though "you can't put the toothpaste back into the tube". Meaning in order to fix it, we aint going back to the old way of doing it. So what then is the solution?

That is kinda where we are as a sport. But one thing that I see with the IM/Kona issue. I think they are getting a little too close to the fire with their race pricing. I'm 100% with them moving the WC around. I'm 100% against them for 1 gender only race championship. And in the fact of what they are charging and I think we are in a window where "things can change". I dont know that we'll necessarily go back to local grass roots only, but I think they are going to price point everyone out of that part of the sport. So that I think. we then have the best chance for the sport to go back to the "old days" where you just showed up and raced on whatever you had and that was that.

I actually think what is going to happen is that the sport is going to be dominated by the 70.3 distance in 10 years. That's my prediction. It's easier to train for, it's easier to race. It's "cheaper" (even though it's basically half the price of an full IM). It's easier to do on *less than ideal* equipment, etc. It's easier for "newbs" to do, etc. I think if the sport moves to that, then even the local races and be better suited because those races can have a chance to even put on their own half distance events and also more money can be spent on races/gear when you aren't spending the money on 1 event only, etc.

I've talked to a guy that has been to Kona 15 times as an athlete, and was the primary vendor for IM in Kona for 10+ years. That's what he thinks as well. "The biggest competitor to the IM distance is IM's very own 70.3 branded events".

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I raced in Spain once (Sprint Triatlon Benalmadena) and the people there were nothing like what you describe.

They weren’t slow either, most of them. Smallest percentage of overweight AGers I’ve seen in a race. But no IM-like superhuman pretense, regular gear, and a versatile age and gender structure. Also: no finisher medals (finally!), but a cool sleeveless included in the EUR 20 race fee.

In a word: substance over form. No dick swinging, just regular triathlon in the form of a smashfest. I was humbled in that race. Only my run went ok relative to the rest of the men’s field.

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"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden

is the sport not already dominated by the 70.3 distance?

14 Ironman Races scheduled in North America for 2023. 43 70.3 Distance races scheduled in North America for 2023. And this is just WTC events.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

IMO no we aren't because we are still a very focused IM/Kona tri world. So that's why I think IM at the 140.6 is in trouble because eventually they will simply have priced out all their customers. They've basically done that now with anyone under 40 basically. So they aren't going to have anyone to backfill their races in 10 years because no one can afford it, and no one will have grown up in it; other than some "over priced" old dude event. So if you've priced out the under 40 crowd, then eventually there won't be the need/desire to have 14 NA IM branded events. You'll need 10 and then 6, etc. But the 70.3 distance will always be achievable and likely "price point" accessible, but it'll also allow more leeway in how people train and race. Right now local races are pinched out by the "I'm 10000% focused on IM AZ" that is costing me $5k. That athlete is so damn scared to veer off any path.

But take that option away and you suddenly create much more variety imo. That's the future, especially the prices IM is forcing on it's customers with IM specific events.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I hate to say it but I think the die is cast....so many things came together to kill the local race scene (Ironman, high tech emphasis, and expense along with many other factors) and I don't see how triathlon recovers...its destined to be a very small sport that is in the Olympics and therefore survives with a minimum of participants to keep it going.....

Dude, so like since you started triathlon this thing called google came around. That's where anyone under 50 is going to go first to get answers to each of your questions. New entrants to triathlon are not going to go find a magazine rack.

By the way, for many of your questions above, the first google search results are to articles in Triathlete magazine. See, e.g., this. Triathlete magazine might eventually require a subscription to Outside, but there were many other articles from other sources in the google search results.

Trinewbies still exists too.

I think beginner triathlon information is easily accessible for anyone with an interest -- sorting the good from the bad is another issue.

The best media for getting someone into triathlon (or anything) is face to face discussion. When someone expresses interest, be friendly, inviting, and helpful. My guess is that you, Dev, have been a great ambassador over the years.

A better thread might be, "have you brought someone into the sport of triathlon"

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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

I go out of my way to try to do entry to mid-level bikes.

It’s part of our commitment to growing the sport—we owe it to cover the entire range, not just the high end of things.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

I keep hearing that both Triathlon and Cycling are in decline, and I dont know if its in the states or whatever, but here in Spain it has increased its popularity by A LOT in the past 5 years.

The amount of new people in the sports is growing, and you can see it because there are more and more clubs appearing, and before you said "triathlon" wherever and people was like WTF is that thing? We have tons of events and cycling events too that now get full when before they didnt. In fact the amount of cyclists has grown so much that you can go "safely" anywhere you want because you keep seeing cyclists everywhere, and a couple of years ago it was just a handful of "safe" routes for them. The amount of dedicated cyclist shops and bars also doubled or tripled. For running, in Barcelona city they had to actually start "banning" newer races because they just couldnt fit more into the calendar

One exception tho is Duathlons, the entry level is so damn high in terms of speed/paces that it totally discourages new people to try the sport. Its a bit counterintuitive, because they usually are short distance events, which in the first place it would be good for newcomers, but with those distances if you dont cycle over 40km/h or run faster than 3:30km/min you will end up at the end of the ranking, and noone that is outside of pro level would have that level. Add that you need very good biking skills for cornering and that the majority of participants are for clubs, and they you wonder why no new people sign up for these races and they get cancelled

About bikes, you can find a little bit of everything. In my club ( because its an small city lets say ) im one of the few with disc brakes, and there are tons of 5-10year old tri bikes with maybe 10spd groupsets for example, but go for the bigger cities or more elitist clubs close by and you will find top end bikes as well as entry level bikes

But the sport is as expensive as you want to make it. I mean, If you want to do long/half distance, expect to pay more than short/oli. And yeah you have to factor traveling, accomodation and whatever. There are local oli tris here that you can do for 50-75€ and its full of low entry leve bikes, but then dont expect super fancy aid stations, support or even "decent" routes. I did one half distance a few months ago where they forced us to through nearly gravel paths full of dirt/rocks/bumps and you could see plenty of people on the sides fixing flats and what not... also me being a MOP guy it was kinda depressing seeing the finish line almost being dismantled when 1/3 of the athletes were still finishing. Also there was almost a 1km T1 that didnt even have a carpet and went through dirt and people had to run barefoot. I dont know, id rather pay a bit more and have a better quality event than something I could just do on my own. People bitch a lot about Ironman but last year in the IM Barcelona I went to pick up my bike at 1am and there were just a couple of atheletes still running and all aid stations were completely full, plus a huge amount of people at the finish line. It doesnt feel right that slower people doesnt receive the same treatment or experience as the faster ones in some cheaper events I did...

Lastly, about being competitive. This is not exclusive to triathlon. In any sport or competition, if you want to be the top end, expect to spend big money on whatever you can find to help you. The thing is not everyone has to do it and not everyone NEEDS to do it. In fact one issue im seeing here in my area is that people is just SO DAMN competitive, theres not a lot of people willing to do triathlon just for fun, the challenge or visiting new places/meeting new people.

Ah, and I know quite a few of Junior level cyclists/triathletes that are growing into the sport ( some of them very capable of becoming pros ) and they dont have superbikes either, they have very low level entry bikes and yet they exceed. I only know one guy that is riding a 16k bike ( with disc wheel included ) but just because his father does triathlon for years and he can share the bike with him

I am going to be controversial and say the rich folk who actually bother to show up to races with expensive kit are superior to folks bitching about cost and using it as a crutch for their non participation.

There are local non m-dot races you can do if entry fees are a lot.

Every sport has a cost silliness on the leading edge. Golf, $75 a case for balls versus $25. $3000 for clubs versus $500. Run shoes. Bikes. What about folks who can afford coaching?

The only thing keeping anyone from toeing the line is entry fees. You can use used and affordable kit.

It is weakness to be able to afford to race and refuse because you cannot own pro triathlete gear.

I have seen folks win local cross races on $500 old ass bikes, same with gravel. You can run fast in $60 shoes. Folks are too lazy to work on their bike fit to be aero instead of buying shit and if they cannot afford to buy shit just throw up their hands and say “ain’t fair I quit”.

I have a nice bike. It is worth probably $5k all in. But I can replicate the fit on a $500 bike with a round basebar and be within 10w probably at race speed.

I started out on a free dumpster find Felt DA that was someones carbon damaged trainer bitch. I carbon repaired it and used it for 2 or 3 years. All in like $500 in parts.

I despise this excuse when countries with kids growing up playing soccer with trash sock soccer balls smokes first world country kids who grew up with wealthy systems for their sports.

I could but Ganna on a freaking Craigslist $500 bike and he would still win a lot of flatter tt’s.

I contend it is a shift in people valuing their time in life and wanting hobbies where you can be OK with a lot less time input and lot less routine physical pain.

Yes, $18k bikes are absurd. But plenty of 7 year old tri bikes on CL for $1k or so that would be plenty fast.

In this photo there is probably a $10k spread in bike values and a 350w spread in ftp’s, but guess what? They didn’t bitch about it and they showed up. And look happy also.

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/...night-smashed-232604

Fair point about Google but Google is not a content creator. Google is a content aggregator. Someone has to create the raw content in the first place.

And no need to be ageist....plenty of folks over 50 not just use Google but are also behind what Google brings to you (Bryn and Page both turn 50 shortly)

And if it is largely high end stuff then that sets the expectation and trend about what the sport is about.

We have an image problem that the sport is all about expensive Mdot events and expensive gear and someone who is coming over from swim or run can't be competitive without a massive capital outlay

My ageist and google comments were kinda poking fun -- I know you are in IT and are older (I'm guessing you are about same age as I). I just raced past cyclocross season as 60+ (by the rules, though I don't turn 60 till next year). Bryn and Page are still kids. But the point still is: I think the content is out there and accessible.

I agree with you about the expensive equipment. The triathlon bike was a brilliant sporting invention, but it put triathlon on a niche path. Back in the early 90s I competed in triathlon for several years before I even got aerobars. Simpler then.

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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

Still, the reality in triathlon is that money helps - a lot. It can't be underestimated.

Comparing myself to my 3-year old prior self at nearing 50, I have almost equal FTP, slightly slowing on the run, and not dramatically faster on the swim, yet I'm performining a full 10 points higher on the USAT scores than my 3-year old self. And that jump didn't come slowly or incrementally, with 1-3 point USAT score gains, it was 8 points in a fell swoop and then small increments thereafter.

The main difference? Money. I was already on a pretty fast bike (Cervelo P2c with disc cover and 50mm flo front wheel) but upgraded it to faster skinsuit, faster Giro Aerohead, new bike+real disc wheel, slightly more aggressive position, and then for the other 2 I made investments in Nike Alphafly race shoes (as fast as aerobars in my case!) and a membership to a 'real' swim pool since my kid is older and i could finally have more time in the morning to swim. All these are $$$ investments, not fitness-performance gains, yet they made a giant difference for me. Like so big a difference that that 8-10 point difference is equal to all the gains I made in my first 6 years of triathlon combined (!!)

Money won't win you the race, and yes, I'm sure I could go out now with the knowledge and experience I have and do it 'on the cheap' with secondhand parts and come out 99-100% as fast as I am now, but you can't neglect the cost it took that experience.

I hate to say it, but money was the single highest yield performance builder I experienced since my first year of triathlon by upgrading essentially everything.

[quote devashish_paul
We have an image problem that the sport is all about expensive Mdot events and expensive gear and someone who is coming over from swim or run can't be competitive without a massive capital outlay[/quote].
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I didn't realize how negatively not having a carbo party and awards night would affect the "vibe" of Ironman until I went to IMWA this month. The community spirit of the race has been replaced by segmented paid training groups and clubs who stay in their own little bubbles for the entire race week.

Don't get me wrong folks,it is a great race but from someone who went there by himself (as I have done to races all over the world for 30 years) the Ironman "community spirit" and inclusion is now sadly lacking.

^^^^^ exactly this!!! People are just looking for excuses. I have mates who complain they can't afford a 70.3 entry fee yet have no trouble drinking that much $ in alcohol over just a couple of weeks.

Like I said in the other thread the biggest problem is people misleading others that high end equipment makes a noticeable difference for the average age grouper.

For a average IM finisher the difference between a $500 bike and a $20,000 bike is probably about 10mins...so tell me more about how these expense bikes are making your 13:30 finish time so 'uncompetitive'...