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Wheel Choice for IM Canada (Disc vs Other)
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So I'm upgrading to 11 speed and my old 808s aren't 11 speed compatible. With my A-Race being IM Canada (~8000 ft gain), I want to pick wheels that will best suit that race. Last year I did the IM Lake Placid bike (~6000 ft gain) on the 808's in around 6 hours. I'm already feeling more fit than last year however. Taking my pace and the climbing into consideration, which direction should I turn for wheels? At what point does weight become a bigger factor than aero? Would something lightweight like a 404 be better suited than a disc?

Thanks in advance!
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Re: Wheel Choice for IM Canada (Disc vs Other) [roshaugh] [ In reply to ]
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roshaugh wrote:
So I'm upgrading to 11 speed and my old 808s aren't 11 speed compatible. With my A-Race being IM Canada (~8000 ft gain), I want to pick wheels that will best suit that race. Last year I did the IM Lake Placid bike (~6000 ft gain) on the 808's in around 6 hours. I'm already feeling more fit than last year however. Taking my pace and the climbing into consideration, which direction should I turn for wheels? At what point does weight become a bigger factor than aero? Would something lightweight like a 404 be better suited than a disc?

Thanks in advance!

Aero rules on basically any IM course out there. Weight will never be a bigger factor. What might be a factor is wind but that is typically a pre-race decision and probably not an issue at IMC.
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Re: Wheel Choice for IM Canada (Disc vs Other) [lakerfan] [ In reply to ]
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Well said.

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Any run that doesn't include pooping in someone's front yard is a win.
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Re: Wheel Choice for IM Canada (Disc vs Other) [roshaugh] [ In reply to ]
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If you ask in this forum, the answer will be "always disc" =)
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Re: Wheel Choice for IM Canada (Disc vs Other) [roshaugh] [ In reply to ]
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Are you upgrading groups and wheels but not bike?

For me it would be a cost/benefit analysis.

I would jus keep the 808’s and 10s and get a cover....oh and Whistler is likely to be closer to 10k feet!

Cheers,
Maurice

http://www.multisportsolutions.com
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Re: Wheel Choice for IM Canada (Disc vs Other) [mauricemaher] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you all for the replies so far! It seems that the disc is the way to go.

If Whistler is 10K, then it looks like I need to spend some more time at low cadence on the trainer!
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Re: Wheel Choice for IM Canada (Disc vs Other) [roshaugh] [ In reply to ]
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DO NOT run a Disc! Too much climbing. Too much torque required. May look aggressive on bike, but will bite you in the ass. (Been there done that).
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Re: Wheel Choice for IM Canada (Disc vs Other) [roshaugh] [ In reply to ]
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I did Canada on an 808 rear with a wheel cover that covered the rest. All the aero, none of the weight. Costs around $85. I seriously don't understand why more people don't do this. Put it on, leave it on. It'll last 2 years or more.


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Zen and the Art of Triathlon
Interviews with Jordan Rapp, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com
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Re: Wheel Choice for IM Canada (Disc vs Other) [roshaugh] [ In reply to ]
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roshaugh wrote:
So I'm upgrading to 11 speed and my old 808s aren't 11 speed compatible. With my A-Race being IM Canada (~8000 ft gain), I want to pick wheels that will best suit that race. Last year I did the IM Lake Placid bike (~6000 ft gain) on the 808's in around 6 hours. I'm already feeling more fit than last year however. Taking my pace and the climbing into consideration, which direction should I turn for wheels? At what point does weight become a bigger factor than aero? Would something lightweight like a 404 be better suited than a disc?

Thanks in advance!

I just went through this, went from 2x10 to 1x11. Edco Monoblock produces 11 speed cassettes that can be ran on a 10 speed hub, I'm currently running a 11-28 11 speed on my 10 speed 808, shifts and works beautifully.

They are expensive, 200 bucks a cassette. But much cheaper than buying a new wheelset and you can dump the extra money elsewhere (unless it's time for a wheel upgrade anyway).

Throw 100 bucks at an aerojacket and 200 at a cassette, for 300 bucks you're running a disc + 808 11 speed setup.

Regards,
J. Smith
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Re: Wheel Choice for IM Canada (Disc vs Other) [roshaugh] [ In reply to ]
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Mavic Open Pro
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Re: Wheel Choice for IM Canada (Disc vs Other) [lakerfan] [ In reply to ]
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lakerfan wrote:

Aero rules on basically any IM course out there. Weight will never be a bigger factor. What might be a factor is wind but that is typically a pre-race decision and probably not an issue at IMC.

Chris, you’re probably right, but I think the conventional Slowtwitch wisdom to ^this^ has always carried the caveat “ ... unless you’re doing a course like IM Nice or something.” Like the OP, I have found myself questioning if it really is as simple as “always a disk” with just so much climbing on the new course.

My quick model on BBS, for example, shows that for me, every additional pound of weight on that course translates to one extra minute in my bike split. So ... if the aerojacket - which is, what, like 2 extra pounds, is 2 minutes faster than the 808 alone, clear. But Im guessing it might be seconds of difference between the two on that particular course.
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Re: Wheel Choice for IM Canada (Disc vs Other) [davetallo] [ In reply to ]
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davetallo wrote:
lakerfan wrote:


Aero rules on basically any IM course out there. Weight will never be a bigger factor. What might be a factor is wind but that is typically a pre-race decision and probably not an issue at IMC.


Chris, you’re probably right, but I think the conventional Slowtwitch wisdom to ^this^ has always carried the caveat “ ... unless you’re doing a course like IM Nice or something.” Like the OP, I have found myself questioning if it really is as simple as “always a disk” with just so much climbing on the new course.

My quick model on BBS, for example, shows that for me, every additional pound of weight on that course translates to one extra minute in my bike split. So ... if the aerojacket - which is, what, like 2 extra pounds, is 2 minutes faster than the 808 alone, clear. But Im guessing it might be seconds of difference between the two on that particular course.

I saw more than a few discs at the Alpe d'Huez triathlon. It had 13000ft of climbing in 80 miles. Disc FTW.
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Re: Wheel Choice for IM Canada (Disc vs Other) [NordicSkier] [ In reply to ]
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You piqued my interest: 35 sec difference in flo’s model of Huez, comparing 30/30 to 90/disk.

[edit: correction... 23 sec]

http://flocycling.blogspot.ca/...o-vs-weight.html?m=1
Last edited by: davetallo: Apr 17, 18 14:04
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Re: Wheel Choice for IM Canada (Disc vs Other) [NordicSkier] [ In reply to ]
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I too saw the SIMILATION, but I ask myself why don't all TDF teams run discs across the board when it comes to a hilly TT?

That simulation does NOT* pan out IMHO.
Last edited by: thatzone: Apr 17, 18 15:00
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Re: Wheel Choice for IM Canada (Disc vs Other) [davetallo] [ In reply to ]
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davetallo wrote:
You piqued my interest: 35 sec difference in flo’s model of Huez, comparing 30/30 to 90/disk.

[edit: correction... 23 sec]

http://flocycling.blogspot.ca/...o-vs-weight.html?m=1

That's JUST for the climb. AdH course first 40km (ish) is relatively and fast and there are a few other sections where you can motor a bit too.
It's still a MUCH tougher course than IMC overall.
Therefore, run a disc at IMC.
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Re: Wheel Choice for IM Canada (Disc vs Other) [davetallo] [ In reply to ]
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davetallo wrote:
So ... if the aerojacket - which is, what, like 2 extra pounds, is 2 minutes faster than the 808 alone, clear. But Im guessing it might be seconds of difference between the two on that particular course.

The aerojacket I ran on my original 808s (narrow, tubular), trimmed to cover only 1 inch of the rim weight 423 gms - a bit less than 1 pound. There was a post on here back in the day that showed this combo was faster than the flat 900 disc.
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Re: Wheel Choice for IM Canada (Disc vs Other) [FatandSlow] [ In reply to ]
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This is a screenshot directly from wheelbuilders website. I wonder what they define as “steep and prolonged grades?” A 404 weighs roughly 935g. A super 9 weighs 1175g. A 404 plus a cover weighs 1335g. What do pros run on a course like Canada or Nice?
Last edited by: roshaugh: Apr 17, 18 18:45
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Re: Wheel Choice for IM Canada (Disc vs Other) [roshaugh] [ In reply to ]
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roshaugh wrote:
This is a screenshot directly from wheelbuilders website. I wonder what they define as “steep and prolonged grades?” A 404 weighs roughly 935g. A super 9 weighs 1175g. A 404 plus a cover weighs 1335g. What do pros run on a course like Canada or Nice?

I don’t think the new Canada has either steep or long gradients
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Re: Wheel Choice for IM Canada (Disc vs Other) [davetallo] [ In reply to ]
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davetallo wrote:
lakerfan wrote:


Aero rules on basically any IM course out there. Weight will never be a bigger factor. What might be a factor is wind but that is typically a pre-race decision and probably not an issue at IMC.


Chris, you’re probably right, but I think the conventional Slowtwitch wisdom to ^this^ has always carried the caveat “ ... unless you’re doing a course like IM Nice or something.” Like the OP, I have found myself questioning if it really is as simple as “always a disk” with just so much climbing on the new course.

My quick model on BBS, for example, shows that for me, every additional pound of weight on that course translates to one extra minute in my bike split. So ... if the aerojacket - which is, what, like 2 extra pounds, is 2 minutes faster than the 808 alone, clear. But Im guessing it might be seconds of difference between the two on that particular course.

The operative word in your response is "Chris, you're probably right...." It's all about making decisions based on achieving a high degree of probability.

You're overthinking it. However, in defense of "overthinking it," I'll leave you with this:

It's far better to overthink it than to underthink it.

Last thing, given that I see so many triathletes carry around a few extra lbs of weight, there's your low-hanging fruit. ;-)
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Re: Wheel Choice for IM Canada (Disc vs Other) [roshaugh] [ In reply to ]
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Don't oversimplify things! 10.000ft climbing is not always the same. Weight might be bigger than aerodynamics if you have long steep climbs (say a 10miles climb with 5-6% average), but I really cant seem to find any on the IM Canada course (and that was the original question). That course has lots of small hills, there is basically no flat part. And remember, a heavy disc can even be an advantage in this terrain, as a heavy stable disc wheel will help you carry your speed longer (it will basically push you up the hill to a certain extent, giving you a few meters extra "for free"). I know of very successful professionals who bought discs with different weights (from their own money, even though they were sponsored) to have certain characteristics for a specific courses needs, for example a lightweight disc at 800 gr and a mavic disc at 1100 gr, for the reasons mentioned above.

I know its sometimes tough to remember, but there are other manufacturers apart from Zipp =) If you want the best equipment, take into consideration other things as well, there is not only the choice between 404, 808 and Super9. If you are only considering weight and aerodynamics, you can get for example a disc like lightweight (tubular) or Citec (Clincher) which are 100gr lighter than the 404. Then you got low weight AND a disc, its not either/or.
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Re: Wheel Choice for IM Canada (Disc vs Other) [Ben6] [ In reply to ]
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Roshaugh, this may not be the answer you are looking for, but ...

You report riding 808s on a previous hilly course, ie IMLP. Whatever factors made that an acceptable decision for you then probably still hold. (Unless the 2018-Roshaugh is disgruntled with the 2017-Roshaugh.) Those factors may be Roshaugh-specific or race-specific or a most-optimal-anytime-anywhere general equipment choice for you. You sound already committed to 11 speed, so other than 10-->11 work-arounds you are in the market for new wheels. I love the prospect of a new major purchase, so much fun, enjoy yourself!

However, when I find myself even remotely stressed about bike equipment choices, I make myself return to this algorithm (a non-scientific highly personal and incomplete hierarchy of principles) and address each item in order:
First, the equipment must be reliable and safe.
Second, the equipment must allow comfortable generation of adequate power.
Third, the equipment must support an aerodynamic body position.
Fourth, wheels are the first place to seek aerodynamic gains, particularly the front wheel.
Fifth, a clean front end is the next place to tidy up aerodynamically.
Sixth, the frame is next to last, just before number 7 which is doodads like bottles.
I have never had a good plan for helmet and clothing.

These principles are nothing fancy, just a lazy man's way of trying to organize his thoughts. Yes, some are related to minor triumphs, but most of them are derived from having my butt kicked by people who appropriately prioritized numbers 1 through 3, then 4, then 5, etc, while I was mired down around number 7.

As you can imagine, I apply the same prioritization to choices about make and model. I.e. I blindly assume that the aero and weight dis/advantages between Zipp Hed Flo etc, and likewise between 40-ish 60-ish and 80-ish rims, fall near the category of doodads. Choose what you want but keep it in perspective. I think all major manufacturers are producing good products. Clearly, I am not a marginal gains kind of person.

For what it's worth, I ride 808s (and go find the cover in the basement when I think I will be riding faster than 25 mph). See you in Canada.
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