Re: What should Lionel do to improve his swim [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 15 7:30

Post #126 of 147 (3036 views)

He obviously has some flaws in his technique and also requires a full time set of eye's on his swimming.

But could he also have a fear of Open Water swimming. Not sure if this was mentioned anywhere before. His speed and technique is lacking for sure, just wondering if fear of swimming in the Open water is compounding the problem. Only guessing, but maybe he just doesn't have enough exposure to Open Water swimming to overcome that fear and it's making small technical flaws become huge flaws in Open Water...

Just a thought, as I have no idea how much Open Water swimming he has completed.

Last edited by: Phoenixrising: Oct 27, 15 7:35

Re: What should Lionel do to improve his swim [Zenmaster28] [ In reply to ]

FindinFreestyle

Oct 27, 15 7:39

Post #127 of 147 (3023 views)

Zenmaster28 wrote:

http://livestream.com/...nts/3678055/kona2015

Go to part 1 at the bottom and then to 26:20 of the video and you'll get about 20s of him. Certainly not something to do analysis on but it gives an idea of turnover for sure.

He looks like a scared age grouper swimming. From the other video, it also looks like he pulls sorta wide.

I suspect he needs more variety in his training. Stuff like high force pulling, happy medium work (where you experiment with really slow and really fast turnover rates), and some specific drills targeting the initiation of his pull (like the old 6 kick switch), and one arm freestyle.

Re: What should Lionel do to improve his swim [FindinFreestyle] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 15 7:42

Post #128 of 147 (3014 views)

I'm by far no expert, but from that video it looks like his left arm barley gets out of the water.

Re: What should Lionel do to improve his swim [Phoenixrising] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 15 7:44

Post #129 of 147 (3007 views)

That's fine... It's what happens under the water that counts....

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Re: What should Lionel do to improve his swim [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 15 7:46

Post #130 of 147 (3002 views)

True enough! I would fall in that category of very little Open Water experience, so I will for sure defer to you guy's. However, wouldn't that low arm drag through the water hinder him, especially in choppy / swell like conditions.

Re: What should Lionel do to improve his swim [Phoenixrising] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 15 7:48

Post #131 of 147 (3000 views)

as long as it's out of the water, it's fine.

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Re: What should Lionel do to improve his swim [FindinFreestyle] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 15 7:54

Post #132 of 147 (2991 views)

FindinFreestyle wrote:

Zenmaster28 wrote:

http://livestream.com/...nts/3678055/kona2015

Go to part 1 at the bottom and then to 26:20 of the video and you'll get about 20s of him. Certainly not something to do analysis on but it gives an idea of turnover for sure.

He looks like a scared age grouper swimming. From the other video, it also looks like he pulls sorta wide.

I suspect he needs more variety in his training. Stuff like high force pulling, happy medium work (where you experiment with really slow and really fast turnover rates), and some specific drills targeting the initiation of his pull (like the old 6 kick switch), and one arm freestyle.

I would caution against reading too much into that other video I posted. It's from 2012, I think he's done a lot of work since then. Certainly he's gotten a lot faster in the pool, that one was an all out 400 in 5:35ish.

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Re: What should Lionel do to improve his swim [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 15 8:05

Post #133 of 147 (2983 views)

On his blog "Ironman Day in Kona " around 14:04, not sure if he is generalizing, but he talks a little about the fear he has in the Kona water and not going out past the pier. Not sure what to read into that, if anything...

Re: What should Lionel do to improve his swim [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 15 8:19

Post #134 of 147 (2974 views)

JasoninHalifax wrote:

Just from what I can glean from his blog, that's not the issue. Hes been working on developing distance per stroke, but he was taking 22-30 strokes per length earlier in the year.

Maybe that's part of the problem. If you focus too much on specific metrics and specific stroke elements, you lose sight that ultimately you need to learn to simply swim better to perform well in open water. "swim better" incorporates body position, kick, timing, catch and pull so they all work together. I suspect there's elements for all of the above that need work. You need a clear hierarchy to work on.

For example, I'm watching my 6 year old take swim lessons. He overall body position is OK, but her kick is uncoordinated. There's no need to work too much about breathing, timing or arm motion until the kick is sorted. Once the kick is sorted, the other items will tend to fall into place as she'll suddenly move more smoothly through the water.

If his legs, body position and rotation need work.... why the hell even worry about stroke rate? Plus any improvements to the stroke might get "undone" after you correct the other elements. You end up chasing your tail.

It's like focusing on improving your FTP when you spend half the bike leg sitting up rather than in aero and your overall bike fit is terrible. Gaining 20 Watts won't help the 40 your throwing away.

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Re: What should Lionel do to improve his swim [motoguy128] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 15 9:01

Post #135 of 147 (2939 views)

+1 on this one.
From the videos it looks like the kick might be the major problem.
I'm not a coach but I've worked with a few people trying to help them with their swim. I like to have them focus on the kick and I break down their stroke from there, sually spending almost 2 full sessions just doing drills focusing on the kick. After that I even have them use a kick board to start working in the arm stroke.

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Re: What should Lionel do to improve his swim [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 15 9:04

Post #136 of 147 (2724 views)

Just read the Zona Race report on TRS and it appears Sanders maybe working with Gerry Rodrigues...

Are you looking at getting a coach for 2016? Any big changes for 2016?
I learned a lot in 2015 and I think I will continue to be self-coached in the bike and run for next year. I have no idea what I am doing in the swim so I am looking to find a swim coach. Gerry Rodrigues of Tower 26 is someone I�m currently chatting with. Kona gave me the kick in the ass I needed to get serious about improving my swim. 2016 will be the year of swim improvement and polarized training.

Re: What should Lionel do to improve his swim [Phoenixrising] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 15 10:05

Post #137 of 147 (2686 views)

Phoenixrising wrote:

Just read the Zona Race report on TRS and it appears Sanders maybe working with Gerry Rodrigues...
Are you looking at getting a coach for 2016? Any big changes for 2016?
I learned a lot in 2015 and I think I will continue to be self-coached in the bike and run for next year. I have no idea what I am doing in the swim so I am looking to find a swim coach. Gerry Rodrigues of Tower 26 is someone I�m currently chatting with. Kona gave me the kick in the ass I needed to get serious about improving my swim. 2016 will be the year of swim improvement and polarized training.

I would think that working with Rodrigues would require moving down to California, as I really think you need someone standing over you watching your every stroke to get your stroke properly grooved. I don't think swim coaching via the internet works very well.

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Re: What should Lionel do to improve his swim [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 15 12:30

Post #138 of 147 (2621 views)

Absolutely!! If he is to take the swim portion of this race seriously, I hope he plans to spend considerable time in Cali in the Open Water with Gerry's team. I really think he needs a training base outside of Ontario, at least for portions of the year. The top guy's all have training destinations / camps i.e The Woodlands for Beals / Hanson / Csoke or Raelert and team at Fuerteventura ..Lionel needs to incorporate this or risk being just another top 10 threat...

Re: What should Lionel do to improve his swim [Phoenixrising] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 15 17:46

Post #139 of 147 (2527 views)

Phoenixrising wrote:

Absolutely!! If he is to take the swim portion of this race seriously, I hope he plans to spend considerable time in Cali in the Open Water with Gerry's team. I really think he needs a training base outside of Ontario, at least for portions of the year. The top guy's all have training destinations / camps i.e The Woodlands for Beals / Hanson / Csoke or Raelert and team at Fuerteventura ..Lionel needs to incorporate this or risk being just another top 10 threat...

Your reference to The Woodlands (TW) reminds me that "snappingT" Tim, who is the masters/pro triathlete coach at TW, made in comment, maybe in this thread, saying that he had coached Lionel for about 6 weeks this past year. It sounded like he was doing "remote coaching" via the web, as he made no mention of LS coming down to TW. I don't know who trains with Gerry's team but LS would definitely have some very challenging training partners in Csoke and John Kenny, both of whom did the pro camp that Tim ran this past January. I watched some video of Csoke and Kenny going at it stroke for stroke during that camp; actually it wasn't quite stroke for stroke since Csoke's wingspan is something like 77" vs Kenny's 69", so Kenny was taking around 18 spl vs Csoke's 14 spl. Kenny has extremely high swimmer creds, being a 5-time national champ in the 10K to 25K OW events. IIRC, Kenny and Csoke were doing 100s (scy) leaving on the 1:05/1:10...:)

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Re: What should Lionel do to improve his swim [Phoenixrising] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 15 18:20

Post #140 of 147 (2491 views)

Just out of curiousity how hard is it for pro triathlete to move from Canada to USA? In my profession (technology) it's not exactly that easy. Basically the employer has to prove they can't hire anyone in the USA with the same skill in a reasonable time given the market pressures etc etc. How hard is it for a Canadian pro triathlete to move south given that they are running their own businesses.

Re: What should Lionel do to improve his swim [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 15 18:29

Post #141 of 147 (2483 views)

That's a good question. However, not knowing anything about Lionel, I'm not sure he would need to / or want to relocate on a permanent basis but maybe incorporate a plan similar to Cody Beals. Instead of flying to Texas he would just need to spend some time in Cali. But I agree with Ericmulk, I don't think he can do this remotely. It would appear, to fully embrace what Gerry would have to offer, he would need to be in the open water of the Pacific.

Re: What should Lionel do to improve his swim [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 15 18:42

Post #142 of 147 (2474 views)

devashish_paul wrote:

Just out of curiousity how hard is it for pro triathlete to move from Canada to USA? In my profession (technology) it's not exactly that easy. Basically the employer has to prove they can't hire anyone in the USA with the same skill in a reasonable time given the market pressures etc etc. How hard is it for a Canadian pro triathlete to move south given that they are running their own businesses.

Thinking in the most general terms, since a pro triathlete is self-employed, i would think he/she could live wherever he/she wanted to, assuming the chosen country would let him. I don't think Canadians have any problem crossing into the U.S. for however long you want, correct??? And vice-versa for Americans???

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Re: What should Lionel do to improve his swim [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 15 18:57

Post #143 of 147 (2459 views)

devashish_paul wrote:

Just out of curiousity how hard is it for pro triathlete to move from Canada to USA? In my profession (technology) it's not exactly that easy. Basically the employer has to prove they can't hire anyone in the USA with the same skill in a reasonable time given the market pressures etc etc. How hard is it for a Canadian pro triathlete to move south given that they are running their own businesses.

The threshold IIRC for filing U.S. taxes is over 181 days spent in the U.S�.if you are over that then you better be filing a U.S. tax return or you're in shit.

The designation for Lionel and others would be (going back a few years) "athlete artist or other" they have the ability to offset income vs travel etc and even food�for example if LS is 165 pounds or so he could write off about 40% of his annual groceries (assuming LS eats 4000+ calories vs a "normal" person at 2500 or so at his weight) precedent set in supreme court..RE bike couriers.

He can also capitalize bikes/equipment etc but needs to "re-capture" IE claim revenue for sold equipment�IIRC if he gets it for free then sells at below market *I think* he can claim a loss�of course depends on the creativity of your CA ;-) He can also claim travel for relevant advisors/support crew etc, he can claim marketing�if he buys or rents a house he can write off his pain cave and even portions of the hall way leading to the bathroom�"ninja" blender, gas to the pool etc�you bet!

Basically LS according to another sight made about 75k US in prize money last year�.assuming another 25 or so from sponsors, maybe 100k or more US�.he should move to Alberta or B.C. at about 140k$ Can. ;-) �.he should definitely not claim taxes in the U.S. as they are (for the most part) higher there.

So the threshold is 180 or 181 days, basically he is not "earning wages" IE he could train his ass off and make zero money next year. This is different than say NHL, NBA or MLB where you are actually an employee of the company/org.

Maurice

Re: What should Lionel do to improve his swim [Phoenixrising] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 15 19:39

Post #144 of 147 (2426 views)

Focus on technique - he has no problem with work ethic and training yardage. Come train with us at The Race Club! :)

Re: What should Lionel do to improve his swim [mauricemaher] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 15 19:40

Post #145 of 147 (2424 views)

mauricemaher wrote:

devashish_paul wrote:

Just out of curiousity how hard is it for pro triathlete to move from Canada to USA? In my profession (technology) it's not exactly that easy. Basically the employer has to prove they can't hire anyone in the USA with the same skill in a reasonable time given the market pressures etc etc. How hard is it for a Canadian pro triathlete to move south given that they are running their own businesses.

The threshold IIRC for filing U.S. taxes is over 181 days spent in the U.S�.if you are over that then you better be filing a U.S. tax return or you're in shit.

The designation for Lionel and others would be (going back a few years) "athlete artist or other" they have the ability to offset income vs travel etc and even food�for example if LS is 165 pounds or so he could write off about 40% of his annual groceries (assuming LS eats 4000+ calories vs a "normal" person at 2500 or so at his weight) precedent set in supreme court..RE bike couriers.

He can also capitalize bikes/equipment etc but needs to "re-capture" IE claim revenue for sold equipment�IIRC if he gets it for free then sells at below market *I think* he can claim a loss�of course depends on the creativity of your CA ;-) He can also claim travel for relevant advisors/support crew etc, he can claim marketing�if he buys or rents a house he can write off his pain cave and even portions of the hall way leading to the bathroom�"ninja" blender, gas to the pool etc�you bet!

Basically LS according to another sight made about 75k US in prize money last year�.assuming another 25 or so from sponsors, maybe 100k or more US�.he should move to Alberta or B.C. at about 140k$ Can. ;-) �.he should definitely not claim taxes in the U.S. as they are (for the most part) higher there.

So the threshold is 180 or 181 days, basically he is not "earning wages" IE he could train his ass off and make zero money next year. This is different than say NHL, NBA or MLB where you are actually an employee of the company/org.

Maurice

Thanks, I assumed they would be in some self employed category with a number of overall days they can sped in the US without a visa and having to pay taxes.

Last edited by: devashish_paul: Nov 14, 15 19:41

Re: What should Lionel do to improve his swim [amykhall] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 15 20:12

Post #146 of 147 (2401 views)

I suggested The Race club right from the opening post. I hoped you would jump in with an invitation for Lionel :)

Re: What should Lionel do to improve his swim [Phoenixrising] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 15 20:21

Post #147 of 147 (2394 views)

Thank you! He's already reached out to us and his manager has met with Gary Sr. We'll see. C'mon down Lionel and everyone, anytime :)

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