Out of curiosity - are you eating breakfast before these rides and if so what?

100g carbs is 400kcal, regardless of the source. Are you listing out the total amount of each option above or the amount of carbs in each? Obviously fat and protein content needs to be accounted for as well.

For your size that sounds like an appropriate amount of carbohydrate intake per hour as long as your body can absorb it. To be honest the source of the carbohydrate is somewhat irrelevant. The only drawback to what you are consuming is ease of use and convenience. Can you carry those items with you efficiently on the bike or would an engineered sport product with different packaging be easier.

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project

Carbs carbs carbs. Calories can matter more for larger athletes because of how much additional energy is burned, but moreso for recovery and future sessions.

If you run off the bike after eating all that solid food you won't be making it very far before a bathroom break lol.

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My Strava | My Instagram | Summerville, SC | 35-39 AG | 4:41 (70.3), 10:05 (140.6) | 3x70.3, 1x140.6 | Cat 2 Cyclist

The sources of Cal's you listed are mainly carbs. There are 4 Cal to 1 gram of carbs.

If carbs are your source of calories, then it doesn't matter which one you focus on. The difference only matters if you use other sources of calories, fat, protein, etc.

Quick math based upon your last three lines is the you’re taking on 50% carbs, 50%, fats and proteins so you really trying to take on 200 to 260 cals/hour total between carbs, fat and protein?

Feeling hungry can come from 100 different things. I've it the more likely things here is that the simple carbs are clearing your stomach faster than pop tarts and leaving you with a literally empty stomach.

Really tho for 1-2h rides you don't need any food. Even if you're cranking out1000kcal/h you're bringing in 800-1000 so net about 1000out. That's an issue if you plan on going another 5h but it's reasonable to end a training session at a large deficit.

I'd try the liquid sugars only for long riders and worry less about hunger and more about if you can maintain your output past 3-4k kcal burned. If you can keep the effort that's a good sign that you're replacing at a close rate to output, which is really the name of the game.

Is there any science on this? I did 5 hours this weekend on the bike and 110g/hour was not enough for me on the bike. I use a bulk blend of malto/fructose, and had 220g in two different bottles. After 3.5 hours, I was weak and felt like garbage. I ended up eating a snickers and drinking a can of coke, topping it off with some gels. All in all, I averaged 140g/hour and ran perfectly fine off the bike... I'm 6' @ 175 lbs. I'm not small, but certainly not big. I'm debating throwing an uncrustabable or two in my special needs bag at IMMD just in case.

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@floathammerholdon | @partners_in_tri

Well there is certainly more to performance than fueling. All of the fuel in the world won't let you sustain a higher output than you're physically able.

Where did you get the snickers/coke? Presumably a gas station stop? Likewise for the run, there's surely a few minutes of a break there before you start running. Sometimes just a few minutes off is all it takes to get a second wind.

Assuming you did 200w on the bike thats ~700kcal/h with 450kcal/h in, net 250kcal out. Even if you're burning 0% fat that's not even a 1000kcal deficit. More realistically at 5h pace you're burning ~75/25 carb/fat, which puts you basically on even cals. It's hard to tell the difference between fatigue caused by lack of food and fatigue caused by lack of fitness. The math in this case points to the latter.

Yeah, great point. I actually was right at 200w, which should be easy zone 2 pace (300-ish FTP). It was hot (topped out at 96 degrees), so hydration (and electrolytes) could have been lacking.

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@floathammerholdon | @partners_in_tri

There's plenty of science to consumption of carbs up to 120g/hr and it's benefits on performance. There is less science for consumption above those rates... But, Alex Harrison would content that's because (almost) no one has tried it.

There is precious little science for the consumption of anything else or alleged benefits for performance... Lots of "beliefs" though.

All you really did was stop (and rest) and consume a coke which is 39g of hf corn syrup (aka glucose+fructose) and a little caffeine; and a candy bar which is about 50% kcal sugar (glucose+fructose), and about 50% kcal from fat, and a little (~5% kcal) from protein.

I am just listing out total carbs / total calories from the label of the food.

Most of the time, I don't have time to eat breakfast beforehand.

I ride around 430-500am, so it's get up, hydrate, bathroom, loosen up ... then get on the bike. Usually it's a poptart right away when I get on the bike.

If I do ride at a more reasonable time, I eat oatmeal / peanutbutter / banana. But that's rare.

What's your fluid intake? What was the weather like? What was your recent training? There's more than just carbs that can make you feel bad.

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My Strava | My Instagram | Summerville, SC | 35-39 AG | 4:41 (70.3), 10:05 (140.6) | 3x70.3, 1x140.6 | Cat 2 Cyclist

Today, I'm generally eating 75% (ish) of the calories that I'm burning. So on a 5hr ride, I could end ~1k deficit which is okay.

What I'm asking about tho is (and I'll test this weekend), even if I eat 125g carbs / hour that's only 500calories. That means by the end of the ride I'll end up at 2500+ deficit.

Do I need more calories to avoid bonking or is it simply more carbs is what I need?

So, less than half of the calories you are consuming mid-workout are from carbs. That's not a great choice for workout nutrition... Especially since, the balance of those carbs for those foods specifically is Fat...which are of no purpose whatsoever.

You need more carbs, non-carb calories do not help mid-workout. Try Alex Harrisons Saturday app to get a better plan.

That's very helpful feedback.

So if I'm following:
If a food label says 600 calories + 100g carbs.

That's 400calories from carbs, and 200calories from something else.

The goal is to get as many calories as possible from carbs?




I actually tried the app many months ago and it validated that the recommended carbs / hydration were in line with what I was eating, so I stopped using. I actually didn't dig into HOW I should be getting those carbs tho. Maybe I should sign up again.

In order to have a 2500kcal deficit in 5h you need to to lose 500kcal/h, so your output needs to be 1000kcal/h. That's like 270W. If you're doing that for 5h you should contact the nutritionist from your pro cycling team. 500kcal/h is plenty for a training ride. If you slow down in the second half it's more because of fitness.

You're also not burning 100% carbs, more like 75% and 25% from fat. Eating back 75% of your output should keep you going well past 5h. Even if you were burning 100% carbs at 200W you'd only be in a deficit of 1,200. (A good rule of thumb to remember is 100W for 1h=370kcal).

For carbs v calories: You can eat whatever you want, but fat and protein is go to be digested and turned into fuel much more slowly (hours not minutes). It can also slow the absorption of sugar. For a 5h training ride this doesn't matter. For a 5h TT consuming anything other than simple carbs does nothing but slow you down. I don't know the exact numbers, but most people at IM-type effort can handle ~120kcal/h of 50/50 glucose/fructose, an optimized combo for fastest absorption. Adding fats and proteins into this will reduce the caloric density, slow digestion, and possibly cause stomach issues at higher intensities.

and to answer the question about why you're hungry on only Gatorade/liquids it's because you haven't eaten any solid food since the night before.

Given the questions you are asking, yes, I think you should. The app has a chat channel where Alex will answer questions directly. He answers on ST also... But, it is not quite as frequent as it might be within the subscriber channel (though still quite frequent).

Also, if you have not watched his YouTube videos (I'm guessing you haven't by your questions) you should do that also. Finally, there are some very good articles here on ST (you know, that front page thing we all forget about) by Alex and another nutrition expert which have good info.

In short the harder and longer you go, the more problematic anything other than carbs will become. Protein and fat never help, but if you are going easy enough they may not hurt. Where That limit starts will be somewhat personal.

Proper hydration, including sodium intake, is also a fundamental key. If you don't have enough fluids and salts you will not feel good either, and will eventually limit absorbtion and utilization.

These things effect downstream workouts also. So, even if you can get away with "less optimal nutrition" on today's workout.... It may increase recovery demands, and thus delay readiness for the next harder workout.

As per this and your previous post, I would recommend bringing in the coke sooner. I drink Gatorade Endurance, water, and coke on my long rides. The coke is like rocket fuel, it will make you feel a LOT better. I also did a 5 hour ride 2 Saturdays ago in 95 degree heat, averaged 200 watts (I'm 5'9", 154 pounds) and downed about 95g of carbohydrate per hour and felt great. Try bringing the coke with you and refill if you can.

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project

Thank you. I have generally watched / read lots, but clearly not enough. I’ve focused mostly tho on aggregate “macros” (hydration , electrolytes, carbs) but never really how to get them

I drink / eat / sodium more than most people - I’m thinking I’ll do 130-150g/hr on my long ride this weekend … am always surprised how little others need to eat (or drink)

I am a decent biker, don’t really have performance issues. I would guess nutrition isn’t my limiter (tho maybe it makes me a bit heavier than I need to be)

Super excited to try your suggestions out

for the sake of accuracy, electrolytes and "hydration" aren't macros. Fat, Protein, and Carbohydrates are macros. Electrolytes are a collective term to refer to a handful of "micros" - i.e., micro-nutrients.

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@floathammerholdon | @partners_in_tri

^^^^This.

At Z2 you should be able to burn ~50% fat for fuel, so you'd need at least 350kcal/hr of carbs (consumption or tapping muscle/liver glycogen).....you're getting more than enough (no issue here as long as you can process it well).

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