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What is the best way for me to buy speed?
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I was doing HIM for a long time, solidly MOP. I took a break when the kids were young and now I'm back in. Right now I'm doing sprint tri and doing a little better than MOP. When the kids are a few years older then I'll get back into HIM.

I'm pretty even in all three sports. In neighborhood sprint races I come out of the water in the top 10% with little effort, then pretty much stay in that spot for the rest of the race.

I'm riding a 2003 Cervelo P2K. Completely stock, including the wheels. It has been a fantastic bike.

Back in the day, I got a bike fit by John Cobb. I'm still the same size so the fit should be relatively good.

I just recently got a power meter.

This is what makes sense to me, what do you think?
  1. I'm guessing that race wheels is the best way for me to buy speed.
  2. I would get a coach if I was confident they could build a better training plan than I could and if I was confident that I could select a good coach.
  3. I'm guessing a new bike isn't really going to improve my speed, just the enjoyment factor.

Last edited by: tomljones3: Jul 22, 19 6:59
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Re: What is the best way for me to buy speed? [tomljones3] [ In reply to ]
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How's your bike FTP? That's generally the lowest hanging fruit.
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Re: What is the best way for me to buy speed? [tomljones3] [ In reply to ]
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Training first. Now that you've got a power meter, some structured bike training via power will help. Something like Trainerroad. Your motor is always the week spot.


A bike fit, helmet and well fitting race kit are the best bang for your buck when straight up buying speed. Wheels and a new frame would help, but not as much as you think and are much much much more expensive.
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Re: What is the best way for me to buy speed? [flyinryan] [ In reply to ]
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flyinryan wrote:
How's your bike FTP? That's generally the lowest hanging fruit.

Bike FTP is my focus right now. I'm still pretty new to the power meter but Garmin reports FTP as 225. I have not hit a good rest period yet to do a more accurate test.
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Re: What is the best way for me to buy speed? [tomljones3] [ In reply to ]
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Trick question. You cannot buy speed.
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Re: What is the best way for me to buy speed? [tomljones3] [ In reply to ]
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Here's my quick priority list for buying speed. This is roughly in priority order of performance impact per dollar.
  1. Eliminate any bottles inside the triangle (if they are there)
  2. Aero BTA hydration, if you do not already have it
  3. BTS hydration (gives you both the liquids and increases aero)
  4. Fast tires Continental GP4K2 or GP5K and latex tubes
  5. Aero helmet (assuming you do not already have a fast helmet)
  6. Tri Suit (assuming you do not already have a fast tri suit)
  7. Aero brakes
  8. New front end (the stock P2 base bar is way out of date from current trick parts)
  9. Deep wheels (just jump straight into a rear disc & front 90mm)
  10. New bike (marginal performance gains, but massive joy factor)
Edit: forgot about fast tires & tubes. Huge mistake. Huge.
Last edited by: exxxviii: Jul 22, 19 7:59
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Re: What is the best way for me to buy speed? [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]
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exxxviii wrote:
Here's my quick priority list for buying speed. This is roughly in priority order of performance impact per dollar.
  1. Eliminate any bottles inside the triangle (if they are there)
  2. Aero BTA hydration, if you do not already have it
  3. BTS hydration (gives you both the liquids and increases aero)
  4. Aero helmet (assuming you do not already have a fast helmet)
  5. Tri Suit (assuming you do not already have a fast tri suit)
  6. Aero brakes
  7. New front end (the stock P2 base bar is way out of date from current trick parts)
  8. Deep wheels (just jump straight into a rear disc & front 90mm)
  9. New bike (marginal performance gains, but massive joy factor)

fast tires and latex?
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Re: What is the best way for me to buy speed? [tomljones3] [ In reply to ]
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tomljones3 wrote:
This is what makes sense to me, what do you think?
  1. I'm guessing that race wheels is the best way for me to buy speed.

Cheap front wheel with an aeroish and wide aluminum rim (25+mm deep, 23+mm wide), and minimal (hopefully aero) spokes (no more than 20). Put a $100 Aerojacket on the back.

To know what to suggest, we need a complete rundown on what you are using now. Tires, tubes, bars, helmet, suit, etc. Some position photos and videos would also be helpful.
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Re: What is the best way for me to buy speed? [tomljones3] [ In reply to ]
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I'll sell you my wheels and aero helmet. Boom, done!
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Re: What is the best way for me to buy speed? [dfroelich] [ In reply to ]
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dfroelich wrote:
fast tires and latex?
Doh! Great point. Don't know how I forgot that one. It goes near the top, after buying the cheap hydration stuff. Editing original post...
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Re: What is the best way for me to buy speed? [tomljones3] [ In reply to ]
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There might be enough warrant in a new bike if you have a 2003. A lot now come with deep rim wheels so you get a new bike, and new wheels.

But, here's my rank.

Engine - fitness
Aero helmet
Tri suit
Aero bars on road bike - if no TT bike yet
TT bike - if you had a roadie
Race wheels
New bike

Ryan
http://www.SetThePaceTriathlon.com
http://www.TriathlonTrainingDaddy.com
I got plans - https://www.trainingpeaks.com/...dotcom#trainingplans
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Re: What is the best way for me to buy speed? [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]
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exxxviii wrote:
Here's my quick priority list for buying speed. This is roughly in priority order of performance impact per dollar.
  1. Eliminate any bottles inside the triangle (if they are there)
  2. Aero BTA hydration, if you do not already have it
  3. BTS hydration (gives you both the liquids and increases aero)
  4. Fast tires Continental GP4K2 or GP5K and latex tubes
  5. Aero helmet (assuming you do not already have a fast helmet)
  6. Tri Suit (assuming you do not already have a fast tri suit)
  7. Aero brakes
  8. New front end (the stock P2 base bar is way out of date from current trick parts)
  9. Deep wheels (just jump straight into a rear disc & front 90mm)
  10. New bike (marginal performance gains, but massive joy factor)
Edit: forgot about fast tires & tubes. Huge mistake. Huge.

Skip the R disc wheel, and get a wheel cover.
$100 makes the wind think you're riding a $1k-$2k+ wheel, and it will handle better due to spokes vs. solid construction.
(downside - you don't get the WHOOMP WHOOMP noise)

New bike will not necessarily be any faster/more aero than your current steed.
I have a buddy who has the aluminum P3 - he got a pimped out, top of the line Felt bike a few years ago, and found that he was SLOWER on it.
He's back riding that ancient Cervelo, and kicking ass on the bike again.

Don't bother with BTS hydration, if you can avoid it.

Aero lid and upgrading the front end will go a LONG way for you.


float , hammer , and jog

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Re: What is the best way for me to buy speed? [Murphy'sLaw] [ In reply to ]
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Murphy'sLaw wrote:
Don't bother with BTS hydration, if you can avoid it.
Cervelo published some wind tunnel testing a while ago in which they found that a BTS improves aero. They said it smooths the airflow coming off the rider. I searched and cannot re-find that on their website. So, I run BTS on sprints with empty bottles.
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Re: What is the best way for me to buy speed? [tomljones3] [ In reply to ]
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Training is obviously the first thing to do (coach) and having a properly maintained bike.

The low hanging fruits are usually:
- Position (good bike fit is more comfortable, better power transfer and more aero)
- skin-suit
- Helmet
- Tires
- correct gear ratio for the event
- shave your legs :)


Then you could start spending real money:
- Wheels
- more integrated / aero Frame
- wind tunnel testing
- low friction components
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Re: What is the best way for me to buy speed? [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]
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exxxviii wrote:
Murphy'sLaw wrote:
Don't bother with BTS hydration, if you can avoid it.
Cervelo published some wind tunnel testing a while ago in which they found that a BTS improves aero. They said it smooths the airflow coming off the rider. I searched and cannot re-find that on their website. So, I run BTS on sprints with empty bottles.

BTS done properly can be a little more aero than without.

The VAST majority of triathletes do not do it properly.
You see 2 bottles sticking straight up into the wind, waiting to get ejected, and totally getting in the way when trying to mount/dismount.

I do BTA for sprints w/ a small empty bottle for aero purposes.


float , hammer , and jog

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Re: What is the best way for me to buy speed? [Murphy'sLaw] [ In reply to ]
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Murphy'sLaw wrote:
BTS done properly can be a little more aero than without.
I wish the original PDF or article was still available. IIRC, Cervelo created a jig that could position the bottles in multiple ways relative to the rider. But, without pictures, what they did is kind of a mystery. They wrote that in general, bottles behind the saddle do not have a large penalty and may have a significant advantage. They did not measure a major difference in drag at 0 yaw from bottle position (high, low, near, or far). Keeping the overall configuration as narrow as possible is optimum and nearer to the rider extends benefits out to higher yaw angles.
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Re: What is the best way for me to buy speed? [tomljones3] [ In reply to ]
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I ride a 10 year old Cervelo P1 aluminum dinosaur. I'm old, but not too much of a slouch, and usually win my age group in local stuff. I've got the aero helmet, decent fitting tri clothes, BTS bottles at 45º, and even shave down before races. Last year I finally caved, and got a set of 50mm Roval carbon race wheels, and a set of 90mm Flo wheels. Between the carbon wheels, I'm not sure which are faster, but they kill the old Shimano aluminum stock rims that came on the bike. I'm old, and my engine isn't getting any stronger (weaker if anything), but I was racing on the old rims hovering around 19-20mph depending on the course/distance. With the carbon rims, I haven't been slower than 21 mph average in any race (sprint through HIM), and have averaged over 22 mph in some sprints. Judging by the way I pass my share of $5K carbon bike riding opponents, I have no desire for a new bike, and think I made a good choice putting my money into the wheels.

Athlinks / Strava
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Re: What is the best way for me to buy speed? [Dean T] [ In reply to ]
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Speed? My neighbors can probably hook you up. I see people sometimes show up and leave with little plastic bags of something. Not sure if it's cut with anything though, I don't use the stuff.
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Re: What is the best way for me to buy speed? [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]
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exxxviii wrote:
Here's my quick priority list for buying speed. This is roughly in priority order of performance impact per dollar.
  1. Eliminate any bottles inside the triangle (if they are there)
  2. Aero BTA hydration, if you do not already have it
  3. BTS hydration (gives you both the liquids and increases aero)
  4. Fast tires Continental GP4K2 or GP5K and latex tubes
  5. Aero helmet (assuming you do not already have a fast helmet)
  6. Tri Suit (assuming you do not already have a fast tri suit)
  7. Aero brakes
  8. New front end (the stock P2 base bar is way out of date from current trick parts)
  9. Deep wheels (just jump straight into a rear disc & front 90mm)
  10. New bike (marginal performance gains, but massive joy factor)

Edit: forgot about fast tires & tubes. Huge mistake. Huge.

If eliminate any bottles inside the triangle (if they are there) is true then why don't pro road cyclists do that? They certainly would have the bike handling ability to reach behind and pull one out of there.

Yours is a good list. Is your #1 the top priority ahead of helmet or fast tri suit? Thank you in advance for data/explanation.

Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.
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Re: What is the best way for me to buy speed? [IT] [ In reply to ]
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IT wrote:
If eliminate any bottles inside the triangle (if they are there) is true then why don't pro road cyclists do that?
UCI rules. Bottles are only allowed inside the triangle.
IT wrote:
Is your #1 the top priority ahead of helmet or fast tri suit? Thank you in advance for data/explanation.
#1-#3 are kind of a package deal. And I rank them ahead ahead of helmet and tri suit because you need hydration anyway and they are relatively inexpensive with a strong up-side.
Last edited by: exxxviii: Jul 22, 19 13:12
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Re: What is the best way for me to buy speed? [tomljones3] [ In reply to ]
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credit card, preferably one your wife doesn't know about.

--------------------------------------------
TEAM F3 Undurance
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Re: What is the best way for me to buy speed? [IT] [ In reply to ]
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Pro cyclists do eliminate bottles inside the triangle during TT stages.

On Non-TT stages, 1) UCI rules, 2) aero is really not that important in the bunch and you'd usually throw away your bottle before a big climb / print


IT wrote:
If eliminate any bottles inside the triangle (if they are there) is true then why don't pro road cyclists do that? They certainly would have the bike handling ability to reach behind and pull one out of there.
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Re: What is the best way for me to buy speed? [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]
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exxxviii wrote:
UCI rules. Bottles are only allowed inside the triangle.

Yep. The rule pretty much constrains your options to current standard practice. No showing up to a race with handlebar bottle cages, like in the "heroic" era of road cycling!
Having braze-on bottle cage bosses on both downtube and seattube as standard is something that really only became standard in the last few decades. Most road bikes circa 1980 had cage bosses on the downtube but nothing on the seat tube.

Not permitting bottles on the saddle is not surprising at all. Besides the aesthetic consideration, a lot of people do a poor job of setting up saddle cages. Very few people I ride with use behind-the-saddle cages, but most of the bottle launches I've seen on road rides have been from that location. It can be done right, but you need to position them properly and use cages with good retention. A lot of people just don't. In a tight group, that's dangerous. Roadies are a very traditional group, and if people are doing a new thing that's dangerous when done poorly, and they're doing it poorly, expect that thing to be banned.
Last edited by: HTupolev: Jul 22, 19 14:37
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Re: What is the best way for me to buy speed? [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]
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exxxviii wrote:
Here's my quick priority list for buying speed. This is roughly in priority order of performance impact per dollar.
  1. Eliminate any bottles inside the triangle (if they are there)
  2. Aero BTA hydration, if you do not already have it
  3. BTS hydration (gives you both the liquids and increases aero)
  4. Fast tires Continental GP4K2 or GP5K and latex tubes
  5. Aero helmet (assuming you do not already have a fast helmet)
  6. Tri Suit (assuming you do not already have a fast tri suit)
  7. Aero brakes
  8. New front end (the stock P2 base bar is way out of date from current trick parts)
  9. Deep wheels (just jump straight into a rear disc & front 90mm)
  10. New bike (marginal performance gains, but massive joy factor)
Edit: forgot about fast tires & tubes. Huge mistake. Huge.

Nice list

Thank you

Any particular BTS holder you would recommend for an older model P2?
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Re: What is the best way for me to buy speed? [Murphy'sLaw] [ In reply to ]
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Murphy'sLaw wrote:
exxxviii wrote:
Murphy'sLaw wrote:
Don't bother with BTS hydration, if you can avoid it.
Cervelo published some wind tunnel testing a while ago in which they found that a BTS improves aero. They said it smooths the airflow coming off the rider. I searched and cannot re-find that on their website. So, I run BTS on sprints with empty bottles.

BTS done properly can be a little more aero than without.

The VAST majority of triathletes do not do it properly.
You see 2 bottles sticking straight up into the wind, waiting to get ejected, and totally getting in the way when trying to mount/dismount.

I do BTA for sprints w/ a small empty bottle for aero purposes.

What do you do for HIM and IM?
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