ITU courses are notoriously short.

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Striving to have sex more than 66 times per year

agreed that those courses are not the most accurate courses and their times are usually suspect. There have been some fast runners though. I think Simon can go just under 30 minutes in a real 10km. I don't know many of the current ITU guys but I know that Matt Reed can go around 31 in an open 10km. Some of the others have previously run some very good times (Tim Don for example) but not sure what they could actually do in the middle of tri season for an open 10km.

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Mike Plumb, TriPower MultiSports
Professional Running, Cycling and Multisport Coaching, F.I.S.T. Certified
http://www.tripower.org

All ITU runners are extremely fast. All are much faster than me. Only a few of them are sub-30 IMHO.

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Striving to have sex more than 66 times per year

What is their potential, or what is their capacity in the middle of training for two other sports?

They may be able to trim a minute if their focus switched to 10,000 workouts.

-SD

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https://www.kickstarter.com/...bike-for-the-new-era

There are a few guys with bona-fide 29-low times, even 28-high. I would bet that the top, say, 10% of the runners on the circuit could knock off a sub-30 with a few weeks of specific prep. The main thing standing in their way of that kind of speed is all the biking. To run our best, we need to quit biking for a while.

Those guys are extremely fit and fast.

This kind of thread has run before. As I said last time I don't think any of them are actually capable of sub 29 on the track for 10. Otherwise, they would be running in the Olympic final instead. Other people think otherwise.

Look at Craig Mottram - sub 13 min 5k and WC bronze, 32 min 10k off the bike at Noosa.

Most of them don't train to run it opne, so the question is really two part:

1) what can they run in triathlon shape open

2) what can they run if they trained just for 10K

Very, very few are sub-30 open in tri-shape. The courses for ITU are not super accurate. Most don't ever run open 10K's either, and certainly are not running open 10K's at peak fitness (if they are running them, it is early season or late season generally).

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

""""I don't think any of them are actually capable of sub 29 on the track for 10. Otherwise, they would be running in the Olympic final instead."""

sub 29:00 is not making the olympics, the guys in the olympics can run sub 27:30.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Yann Millon did run a 28'31'' on track some years ago (when he was a runner).

Sub 26:30 even... Bekele is amazing! (26:17.53)

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Agree, sub 29 will maybe earn you a few thousand bucks on the road race circuit, but you won't be seeing the Olympics unless your from a very small country that isn't in Eastern Africa.

For what its worth, Jared Shoemocker, ITU U23 World Champ, has run 14:09 for 5K on the track. This was during his college years when he was only training for running. Its about equivalent to a 29:10 open 10K.

It wouldn't suprise me if JS could run 29:10 now. Kemper is much faster than he was in college. The level of training and fitness at the OTC is higher than a college track team (especially Harvard, Princeton?).

As I said, this topic has pretty much been covered here: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...t_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

I was, I agree, overstating the case re: 29mins and the Olympics, and I take your point. In 2000 the 'A' standard for qualifying was 28:10. You need to be able run under 27:45 or have a mean kick if it is a slow race to get through the heat (provided there is one) at major championships.

I just think that triathletes think that we are better runners than we are. Just because Mark Allen could run around 2:40 off the bike in IM doesn't mean he would go sub 2:10. Just beacuse Hunter Kemper or Robbo can run ~ 30 mins on 'measured' road course doesn't mean they are as good as real runners - but that's ok, they are triathletes.

Real runners who run at world class are something else altogether. I ran a couple Olympic 'B' qualifiers in 2000, and even being at that level, considering I have some ability and was committed to what I was doing and uninjured, it was very humbling to just find people who were that much better than me.

Its true that runners at the olympic level are truly out in another universe to a degree that few triathletes can comprehend (in terms of running ability). I've run fast enough to be referred to as a "runner" in a derogatory sense by triathletes during the run portion of the race (Its no fair! He's a "runner"), but it would be a pretty good day for me to hack an 800 at Bekele's 5K pace.

Out of curiosity, what events did you hit B standards in?

5k.

I was ok, without being exceptional. I ran anything from 1500m (3:46) to marathons (2:20) at respectable speeds.

I had a bunch of decent PBs, but only relative to 'normal' people who don't run - everyone elseould see that I was just a good runner. Every fish has it's depth I suppose, and I know mine.

But I was (and am) 100% clean. I know many who were in front of were not, because I saw it, trained with them and was offered to be put on a program at various times. I think I remember talking about this on this forum a few weeks back.

systematic doping within usa track n field. who would have thought?!?!!? :P

"But I was (and am) 100% clean."

Thats something to be proud of. I've trained with a DI XC All American (sub 14, sub 29 guy) who left the sport post college because of he was offered to be put "on the program". Much respect to anyone in that time range who can let it all go rather than compromise thier integrity.

That some great range too. I'll never see that 1500 time but I hope to get within 2 minutes of that marathon in the next couple of years.

[reply]
systematic doping within usa track n field. who would have thought?!?!!? :P[/reply]
Not that there isn't systematic doping in the U.S., but I don't recall D.W. Weston being a Yank.

And I'm not. And as far as I am concerend, there's systematic doping everywhere, but everyone deserves the presumption of innocence.

weston what's your run training like? high mileage? lots of intervals? LSD?

Now I do long triathlons. So it's totally different. I'm not about to run sub 3 minutes kms after 180k of riding.

Then...well it was pretty old school.

When I was at my best for 5k I came off a 12 week intensive volume block, and then quickly moved in specific intervals designed to basically sharpen me up for track. I have always responded best to a big base, followed by very specific work with plenty of rest.

In my volume work I always had 3 or 4 runs a week with fartlek intervals/mile intervals/hillreps etc, but on soft surfaces and away from watches and numbers and heart rates. I focussed on form and feeling right, and then tried to translate it onto the track. The volume block referred to above actually meant 12 weeks of doing 200k+ weeks, with every 4th week at a reduced volume and intensity. I run hard runs hard, and easy runs really easy.

I look back on it and see some problems, but also some good points. I liked the fact that I didn't use much in the way of technology. Just feelings and preceptions for almost all of the non track miles. Very feng zen.

The only triathletes I can remember that ran sub 29 were Greg Watley, I think he went 28:30 and 13:30+ for 10k and 5k. ANd a current ITU racer, Derek Kite. I believe he ran sub 29 for 10k and was an NCAA finalist in the steeple chase I think. Confirmed sub 30 guys were Welchy, Bustos, Mark Allen, Mark Sisson, that I know for sure. Sure there are many others that have done it, or could do it. Point is until you have actually done it, then it is all speculation, and the old saying Money talks, Bullshit walks seems approiate for this discussion....By the way, Mark Sisson went 2:17 marathon, and Bustos 2:18. Except for Benjamin Parades who was the fastest running duathlete,( 2:10 marathon), I believe those times are the fastest. Erin Baker went 2:36 for the women, don't think that has been equalled either.....

I think Whitfield has run a sub 29 standalone 10k... I doubt most run much under 33 or so for a normal 10K race. the guys at the very front are obviously faster but from the few guys I know who are middle of the packer ITU racers, they are more 33-34 minute 10K runners.

"Erin Baker went 2:36 for the women, don't think that has been equalled either..... "

Jackie Gallagher has run faster than that since she retired from triathlon. Another triathlete turned runner is germany's sonia korlik who ran <2:30 shortly after retiring from triathlon in the early 90s.

Anyway all the talk about what triathletes can run in open running events is missing the point: fast running off the bike is what is important to triathletes, and they would rarely if ever taper and race a running event. Open run times don't necessarily translate to success running off the bike.

Joel

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