Robert,



You're dating yourself! ;)

Alan (2353513)

Francois,

Well lets jusy say thast we are all happy little vegemites because we won crickets World Cup last night (and they even televised the Australian Swimming Championships during the lunch break) !!!! C'mon Aussie C'mon.

Everybody sing along:

We're happy little vegemites as bright as bright can be,

We love to eat our vegemite for breakfast, lunch and tea,

Our mother says we're growing stronger every single week

Because we love our vegemite

We all adore our vegemite

It puts a rose in every cheek

hey ho everybody

robert. i was going to write a long post about how wrong you are and such bu tthen it hit me like zack on a softride. you just plain out hate bush. your biggest problem is bush. so instead of wasting space making my point drop me an email at customerjon@hotmail and inform me on bush's mad grab for power.

on a brighter note. do you hate compact frames as much as i do?


my toothpaste isn't a paste, it's a gel!

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customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

Dan,

I don't really want to start another thread on the environment... Just let it be said that the US - and this administration in particular - don't have a particularly good record on the environment.

Dave

yeah and i got this itch. ow!

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customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

Geoff,

I think I am about to switch to Marmite (the NZ kind - not the UK kind), after that (and don't let us forget Iraq as well!)

Dave

PS - the All Blacks eat NZ Marmite - and they are going to win the Rugby world cup.

Dave,

You must be on drugs to think that the All Blacks are going to win the world cup! You know they have no chance! Just like they could even organise themselves to host half of it. ALL TOGETHER NOW...

We're happy little vegemites as bright as bright can be...

the Rugby..

We all know that it is Marmite that both your teams eat.

customerjon:

FWIW, I ride a compact frame. :) (Santa Cruz Roadster)

Yes, I detest Bush, but you missed the thread where I DIDN'T bash Bush for going after Osama and Mulla Omar. They asked for it and although I had some minor quibbles about Bush's methods I generally supported it. I also detested Clinton. Administrations change, but the lies stay the same.

This war is insuperable for the reasons previously stated by others in these threads and many world leaders. We are now the most widely hated country on Planet Earth. This suggests we will be spending a lot of money on various forms of protection, e.g. extra police, military, etc. The Federal Government and State Governments, instead of growing smaller as conservatives desire, will, instead, become large and bloated bureacracies trying to control every element of our lives. To "protect" us, we will need neural implants to identify us and track our every move. Searches at airports will be supplemented by searches at gas stations, the grocery store, the aid station. More mail will be opened for random inspections. Cars will be stopped at traffic lights. The AGENTS (THE MATRIX) will invade your home at 3 a.m. looking for contraband, like Ayn Rand novels and the Christian Science Monitor. God forbid you should be watching BBC on tv....

"FBI Agents searched all racers with odd numbers at IM Utah today looking for explosives in fanny packs. As a consequence, customerjon finished last in his age group rather than winning it by a wide margin as expected."-this from a headline at www.slowtwitch.com, arguably.

Paranoid delusions? Sheer fantasy? Or, the direction AmeriKa is heading?

We'd better keep our space program alive because we will need to get off this planet very soon and not just because we're ruining all the water and air.

-Robert, who had dinner with a Bush supporter last night. <sigh>

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

"Just let it be said that the US - and this administration in particular - don't have a particularly good record on the environment."

you'll get no argument from me there.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

ok lets agree to agree i'm right and you aren't.

so do you like the compacts because of supposed wieght savings or the ride.

also try some marzipan before races (an isralie taught me that) it's yummy and has lots oh carbs.

the us is sad on the enviroment but a lot of places do worse.

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customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

Let me set the record straight here:

I have all the rights to say Bush is "whatever-here"

But you have NO RIGHTS To say that compact geometry sucks! ;-)

Although I concur: marzipan is good!!! :-))

hoping for good news from anywhere today...

Personally I get my info from Fox News, The Drudge Report, Sean Hannity, The BBC and AM radio. Hmm I guess you can tell I am probably a conservative.

To me the whole reason we had to even go into Iraq was due to the complete incompetence of the United Nations and the Clinton Administration. What good is it to pass resolution after resolution, such as 687 and 1441, if your not going to uphold them.

In 1998 when the UN Inspectors were ordered out of Iraq, the chief inspector (Richard Butler) reported that Baghdad was not fully cooperating with them.

What was/is the UNs response ? Zippo, Oh wait Pass more resolutions.

What was Clinton's Response ? Zippo, Oh wait I do remember about 21 cruize missles being lauched (without UN approval I might add), but it had nothing to do with Weapons of Mass Descruction and or resolution 661.

Iraq has never abided by UN resolutions and to think that it would is absolutely laughable. Why would it ? The UN has yet to enforce the resolutions it has drafted.

Alan: Mine should be a negative number. :) And, the only person willing to "date" me is my wife and sometimes that's problematic. :)

I see they gave up on "year based" serials.

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

well said. one of the many reasons to go in stated much better than i could. tiger woods golf clap to you.

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customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

Being a conservative is fine, hating Clinton is also fine as god knows there are enough that hate Bush, but you need to articulate the reasons for going in to Iraq vis a vis lets say North Korea.

North Korea has the weapons, the technology, an equally appaling human rights record and broken UN resolutions by reactivating its weapons program.

The fundamental difference between Korea and Iraq? Are we really going to go and try and liberate the people of North Korea knowing that they have WMD that will reach the west coast? I think not, they are for all intense and purposes shit out of luck and can starve because how foolish would you have to be to take military action against a country with a Nuke.

Unilateralism is going to make the US the most hated nation on earth period if it has not done so already, resentment will grow, militants of all sorts will fester in the resentment and the anger and frustration will be taken out here. It was on 9/11 and it will happen again and again, it's not right, it's not justified but you dont need to be a rocket scientist to realise that what is happening at the moment is going to piss a ton of people off. This is a fact, it's not RIGHT or JUSTIFIED but look at any place on the planet where there are poor and oppressed people and the social problems that result. The IRA felt the British were oppressing the Irish, the Palestinians feel that Israel is oppressing them, Bosnia, Rwanda, Pakistan and India, the list is endless and the violence continues unabated.

On top of pissing off a ton of extremists, the US has caused immense damage with countries that should be considered allies for it's use of unilateral action. I think it would be fair to say that it has set international relations back decades, good will has been lost, animosity is heightened and what is going to happen when US troops are spread out through Afghanistan, Iraq, potentially North Korea and problems arise here or somewhere else. Who will the US be looking to for help, my guess is the members of the UN.

Very interesting interview with Chris Patten on the BBC at present, see if you can get the transcipt on line.

OK Iraq vs North Korea. Hmm Let's see. Probably the biggest reason for not going in and wipping North Korea's Government from existance is China. If it wasn't for China, North Korea wouldn't be in the position it is in today. Oh didn't the UN have a big problem with North Korea say in February of this year ? "The governing board of the UN nuclear watchdog agency has declared North Korea in breach of UN safeguards and sent the issue to the UN Security Council."

North Korea has the weapons in a big part thanks to the Clinton Administration's signing a freeze on North Korea's plutonium enrichment program and actually thinking that they would live up to it. Just like France thinks Saddam would live up to the UN resolutions when time after time he did not.

Under the UN model we shouldn't have to do anything to North Korea for at least 12 years and upteen resolutions, oh and then France I am sure will want to Veto any action taken.

Unilateral or Unilateralism is by definition going it alone. We are far from going it alone unless you consider Britain, Spain, Poland ... to be non existant.

I often ponder why some counties might not want to Support their own Resolutions (1441)

France - Well it seems france does a lot of business with Saddam.

Russia - Well it looks like at least some of the Russian companies might have sold sensitive military equipment to Iraq in violation of decade-old U.N. sanctions.

I also ponder why the media isn't interviewing Hans Blix and asking him what he thinks about oh say the Scud missles Saddam used against coalition forces and maybe that suspected chemical weapons factory near the Iraqi city of Najaf. I mean he seemed to be all over the news just a little while ago. I am sure he would be a great person to interview right about now.

Extremists are by definition extreme - They are not going to listen and suddenly do a 180 base on anything the US does or doesn't do. Over in the Middle East these extremist hate just about everything the US stands for, Freedom of Speach, Freedom of Religion, Freedom to wear a speedo ..... The news they recieve is so slanted towards whatever the goverenment wants them to hear.

Actually I think this War has really shown who our true allies are.

Blame Clinton, Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

An equally constructive argument is that if Bush senior had done the job properly to start with we'd not have had 12 years and 17 resolutions. Please note that it is the same advisors today as it was then, they did not follow through and then they complained after there was no action taken in response to their open letter to Clinton.

The Clinton Iraq and North Korea arguments are ridiculous.

The media bias comment was a joke right? you honestly think that talk radio, CNN and Fox News are any less biased than Al Jazera. It's funny how the live feeds Saturday on almost every network were Al Jazera's and that for a democracy where you profess the right to equality and free speech the amount of hate being preeched towards the French is shocking.

The decision was made by Bushs inner circle months, in some peoples minds, years ago that come hell or high water that they would deal with Sadaam. In 1998 Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz amongst others signed an open letter to Clinton advocating the action being taken today.

Can you honestly tell me that this action was not predetermined and would have taken place whether or not the UN agreed. My mistake it is taking place and the UN did disagree.

The action taken was unilateral, the US decided that if was going whether or not the UN was on board. By definition that is unilateral. Others joined or said that they would back the US but the decision was made by the US and others chose to support or oppose it but their input was not taken because we are there are'nt we? The decision was made. Did the US offer any alternatives? No they clearly chose to go and then said you were in or you were out.

As to the whole business argument you either dont read or rely on Rush Limbaugh for your political commentary. 75% of the population of France are opposed to this war so why in gods name would the government ignore the will of the people? If they did that would actually give them more in common with SH than a democracy. Blair is ignoring the will of the people, people are still opposed and were and he still went. Does not sound like a democracy to me.

Russia has a serious problem today, there is no doubt about it but I am sure that the Russians will not F**k about when it comes to dealing with it. Whether Putin knew that Russian companies were still sending materials in to Iraq remains to be seen but I have no doubt after today that he will stop it in a permanent fashion.

North Korea does not directly fund terrorism, yet, ... Iraq does - so we go forward for Americas protection.

And one last thing, your views are those of a european, we Americans have to defend ourselves, you and the rest of your Euro buddies can deal with it yourselves when terrorism crashes into your land. And it will ...

Why do you think that your PM is in the coalition? He knows whats really going on with Iraq, the rest of the world will know in time when Iraq is liberated. Just wait and see and pray for the poor hundreds/thousands of U.S. troops that are going to die (we are up to 250 casualties but they are not being reported in the mainstream media as of yet) for our freedom from terrorism.

"your views are those of a european"

Gary, a lot of Americans seem to be against this war to. Currently there is a majority behind Bush, but that could easily change in time depending on what happens. The polls supported Viet Nam initially. We'll just have to wait and see.

The outcome of this war isn't in doubt. The Iraqui's don't stand a chance against US high technology. The question is what will happen when it's over. How does Bush tend to impose his mid east vision on a people with a culture and religion so different who will see the US as occupants and not as liberators. It won't be an easy task and if it fails where do you think the next generation of terrorists will come from. The real challenge will be what to do after this war is over.

Wish I had all the answers and a solution, but I guess I don't. Who does?

you are so right.....................

Approximately 600 dead from the IRA from 72-02

Approximately 800 dead at the hands of ETA over the same 30 year period.

Israeli's also know nothing of terrorism, oh except for the 5099 victims between Spet 2000 and 2/1/03.

I am not going to waste time explaining or debating the whys and wherefores or that 9/11 was not the first terrorist attack in history.

As to the euro buddies, euro views comments. I'd suggest you broaden your horizons beyond Ted Nugent, Rush Limbaugh, Hannity and Oreilly and prehaps realize that their are actually Americans that feel the same way. I completely understand that to the "right" anyone that disagree's with them is the enemy and wrong but, and I know that this really chaps your hide, there are people out there Gary that dont think like you.

Gary, can't stand it anymore! shut the fuck up! you don't know shit! ok, you went to war.
our parents in Europe have told us what they saw in Europe during WWII.
54millions deaths of which 30 millions of civilians!

what do you think you know? our parents in Europe know exactly what iraqis feel...you don't know shit and you are a freakin fascist!

you think the US is the first country to get hit by terrorism? wake up!!!

we had one year in paris with Algerian terrorists putting gaz cans full of nails, several attacks in Paris as well, the basque liberation org., Corsica, this is just for France, Germany, England, Spain, etc...they all have their share.

9/11 was certainly more spectacular, but we have far more than 3000, this has been going on for years, before SH, and it will go on after SH...

stop talking as if you were a jew just liberated from the camps who has seen all the suffering of the world, that makes me sick!

so stop pretending that because you went to war you know everything about war, terrorism etc...noone has a clue on what's going to happen after Iraq, but so far, it looks like the fight is going to be much longer than planned and the muslims are going to be seriously pissed...watch the towers fall...

"noone has a clue on what's going to happen after Iraq, but so far, it looks like the fight is going to be much longer than planned"

This is the key. Public support in the U.S. for both the war and for GWB will sink like a stone if there are high American casualties and it also turns out there were no weapons of mass destruction. Of course if it ends quickly and there are weapons of mass destruction to be found, GWB will then be able to say to the world "I told you so." His legacy in the history books will be made or broken depending on what happens to Iraq in the years after the war.

1, Short term can they end this fast with a minimum of casualties? My guess is no given that Rumsfeld, Clark and Fleisher have been backtracking like Clinton redefined "sex". Longer this goes on and the more casualties sustained, regardless of finding WMD, people are still going to question if this is worth it. The problem I have with this is that I dont think Bush would ever quit. Thats what really bothers me, I think he'd pull an LBJ and send 50,000 more to "help save Vietnam from the Vietnamese", Iraq from the Iraqi's. So long as he is surrounded by the Rumsfelds and the Wolfowitzs of this world who see this as an idealogical crusade, it is never going to end.

2, Long term this is a huge problem. There is no model on which to base a democracy. You certainly cant model it on the US or any European countries because for the most part there is a seperation of Church and State in those countries in practice if not in principal. You will not be able to accomplish that in a country where there is the Koran instead of a Bill of Rights and the law is dictated by the religion.

And that link has been proven. Where?????