Looking forward to seeing you at IMAZ, hope your training is going well, I am excited to see how you have come along this year, I am a huge fan and I have taken the advice you gave me on the finishing line at IMFL (2007) very seriously. I am being patient and believing in my coach and his goal to help me. Best of luck!!!!

Dev, thanks for the reply, like I said, as for now, my main goal is to get consistently within the sub 11 hour range. but everything else is icing on the cake. I learned awhile back that if you arent having fun then bag it. I am currently having fun so bagging it ain't gonna happen!!!!

Look at closing the gap between 10:30 and 8:30 as trimming 120 minutes from 5 events:

Swim
T1
Bike
T2
Run

Maybe you can improve your swim by 15 minutes, T1 = 2 minutes, Bike = 30 minutes, T2= 2 minutes, Run = 30 minutes…..or whatever you believe you are capable of doing.

If you did this ^^^^ you would be in the 9:20 range with 40 minutes left to chip away at.

Think about each of the 5 events as individual events to deliberately focus on. I don’t think you can realistically cut a significant amount of time out of your PR aspirations without drilling down into those individual components to assess where improvements can be made.

It has been said that “intensity beats extensity every time” …..better to focus on one thing and be great at it than to be mediocre at a few things.

Apply intensity to each individual event, bring it together and through your intensity, you will have conquered the extensity factor.

Chip away at the stone…..

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

I got thinking more about the "a goal without a plan is a dream" statement that I made above.

Realistically, if someone is 10:30, 8:30 faills into the dream category, in that you cannot actually have a "real plan" for attaining 8:30 without first proving that you can break 10:15 or 10:00 and then 9:30 and so on. It can't be an

If

then

else

There can be no "if" in the plan, or as a bare minimum, the "then-else" path has to bring you to the same finishing point as the "if" path.

So please feel free to have a dream of 8:30, but put a plan to go sub 10 in place first. Saying that the plan is to first break 10, then break, 9 all the while making a pile of cash at work so that you can train full time after breaking 9 is not in the "plan" category...its too fuzzy....there need to be hard tasks along each step that are firmly measureable and achievable...only this is a plan. I really don't see any way of getting around this...simply saying "Do 1100 hours of training" is still a dream. How does that break down at a weekly/daily basis...what are the progression hardsticks etc etc. 8:30 is too far off an fuzzy if you are 10:30....you can have a goal to go 8:30 if you are already 8:50....you can have a goal to go 10:00 if you are 10:30....anything much further off is not immediately attaintable and for which an actual plan cannot be put in place....it then slides into the category of dream

There are tons of guys with dreams out there...very few have a "real plan"...even those with "speadsheets that tell them what to daily" don't really have a plan....most people are like politicians...they just say what they want the army to do...with no clue how to do it....the general staff have to figure out how to accomplish the mission and the footsoldiers have to implement...in this case, we are the politician, the general and footsoldier all in one...most of us do parts of the three, but not all...that's OK....I like doing the footsoldier part and like dreaming, but I don't like setting the strategy, and managing/directing the day to day tactical execution...I have to do enough of that at work....I want sport to be an outlet that is more "free play"

Thunderlegs - I'll join my friend Tommy Nielsen in on this thread - he is proof that you can achive big results on smart and hard work. In my first ironman I did 9.53 and 8.43 in the second. Now I've been tested to be pretty normal in talent. I had no idea that I could go fast but decided to give it a try. I think this is what it really is all about. I was told several times every week that I would never go under 9 hours in an ironman, at points I even belived the ones that kept telling me but decided to find out anyways. You need to invest in you training and lifestyle if you really want to go 8.30 - for this goal you really need to be willing to give up some comfort in your life but you'll get something else in return. I would tell you to go for it. You can also decide to do other things in life but searching your potential, triathon or other aspects of life, is very rewarding.
If you want some inspiration I wrote a short story about how I came from where you are at to awhere you want to be - almost:)
http://www.ironcrazy.com/...nk-to-elite-ironman/

Also I would say you need to get with someone how can guide you and that don't set up limits for you - others opinions on what you can do is something that can really hold you back. Now I would also advise you to set many years aside where triathlon is number one in your life. Pehaps you got it in you, only one way to find out :)
Best regards Aleksandar

Shouldn't we be asking how old are you right now?

That's a good question. Generally speaking athletes reach their peak performance at the IM distance in their early to mid 30's. Now, I know that someone is going to come on here and say what about Joe Bonness? Joe, bless him is, with all due respect a freak! I say that in the nicest way. In every generation, there are those that are abnormal and are able to do things WAY beyond the norms - Joe is one of those guys! Same goes for a guy, who's name escapes me, but I actually went for a run with him once in Toronto, but he's a Kiwi and I believe he holds or did hold the Master's World Best for the Marathon - 2:11 or something like that. Again, this guy is a beautiful freak, just like Mr. Bonness.

The "normal" progression in endurance sports like long distance triathlom sees athletes starting to excell in their teens at something, then starting to build up a base of fitness and endurance in their 20's and then peak performances coming in their late 20's and on into their early and mid 30's. Again, yes their are exceptions, but the general trend is as I have stated. So you are looking at a 10 - 15 year building of the endurance fitness and experience.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

3-5 years of 20-30 hours smart training every week;-)

Just do it!

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Espen Wagener
Kongsberg, Norway

http://www.espenwagener.blogspot.com

Adam, so you are doing IMAZ! Cool. Now, MyAthlete is going to have their GPS product at that race which is right before Boston where they will also have it.
So, rent the unit, would love to watch your sub 11 race in real time.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

What are your test results that you say are "normal". What is your VO2max?

I just do not see why folks who have great genetics seem to say they do not.

As I said, to be at the top, you need genetics, hard work, luck, etc. Miss one of these
and you may be a FOP, but never the worlds best.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

S-Swimmer,

"they/we are unable or unwilling to follow this thought through to it's logical conclusion"

That's because the "laws" of logic don't always work when extended out past a certain point.

Know that I do understand your point, and appreciate your contribution to this thread.

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**************
Too f@ckin depressed from various injuries to care about having a signature line.

Sponsored by Blue Shield PPO.

H2ofun - I think my english might be testet here as I don't know the english words when describing tests. I scored 70 on a test. In denmark we call this number "kondital" and it's a combination of your oxygen uptake and weight - I think. I was told this was good but Thorbjorn Sindballe scored a 86 in this so you see it's not that fantastic. Now I have been very very lucky with my training, meeting the right people, have had time to train and still haven't had an injury. Of course you need talent to get my results but to reach my level you don't need to be superhuman. Now if we talk sub. 8.30 I think it's a little differnt. Remember that even though people at my level beats many at races we get killed by the likes of Mccormack, Sindballe etc.
But I get your point and don't hope I came across as going sub 9 is something everyone can do but I do not think it takes superhuman genetics to go fast in an ironman. Most of all I think the willingness to train and have a lifestyle that will give you the chance is where the "sceret" lies. This is also what I can see most of the posts here suggest.
Take care, Aleksandar

No problem. My point still is the same. And I can make it personal to me. I do not think I have good genetics since I compare
to folks "better" than me. When I make this comment to friends, they give me a bad time since if I compare my genetics to the
TOTAL population, there are very few in front of me, but LOTS behind.

So, from what I have seen posted, 70 is a pretty great number. Lance is like 90 or something?
So, I do not know what percentage 70 puts you at compared to the general population, but I assume it is way up there.

So, my only point is why some gets SO upset when I say WE are lucky and got good genetics for this sport, I just will not understand.
This does NOT take away that without very hard work, and luck, the genetics mean nothing. But, as Rachel posted about her experience
of being a pro, and how she feels folks treat her, I can see why. If I am a MOP AGer, and the Pros are always saying that genetics had
NOTHING to do with their success, and all one has to do is work hard, that is an insult to an AGer because WE DO work very hard!!
But, some pros are too cocky to understand this which is why the perception of the general pro is how Rachel posted.

So, great job in your results. Have fun with your races since for most of us, it will not last forever.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

These threads are an exercise in futility.

First of all you being "on pace" for something is not doing it.

Second, if you had a realistic chance of shaving 2 hours off your time down to a very elite 8:30 you wouldn't be asking these questions here.

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Striving to have sex more than 66 times per year

Dave - Good point. I try to say that I don't have super talent because I really want to inspire people around me to do triathlon. Many are affraid to begin triathlon since the sterotype is you have to be a freak to partake in our sport. At least that is the sterotype here in Denmark. I think this it a bad thing. Now I have done one race in the states and can tell triathlon has a much better culture around it here than where I am.But for sure most triathlete are in great shape and have good genetics.
About age groupers, I have met many who work much harder than I do and am always impressed by how they can be great parents, good at their job and still do the ironman. Now I do think to reach your potential you can't do it all. Here I often see age groupers train too hard and too much but that's a different post :). Their overall workload with family full time work etc. gets to them. However I admire people who can do all these things and know that once I get a family my triathlon time is over at least the way I do it now.

Take care, Aleksandar

Yep, totally agree with you. I just have to always remember that many now look up to me, for better or worse.
So, I have to make sure I do not get kocky. I know in my tri club I try so hard to support others that they can
do what I have, with focus and effort. And yes, I have a full time job and family which takes priority over this sport.
(I just found out all my bike stuff is in my car which has been at the shop for a week now, so I cannot go on my long
bike ride today. First I was upset. Now it is there was some reason I was not supposed to be out on the wet roads today.
Will do an hour on the trainer instead). But, what does seperate most of us from the pack, and I am not sure I am in the better part,
is work ethic. I have basically been at the pool for the last 18 months, 5 days a week at 5:30 in the morning. There is not one
person on my Masters swim team that can say that. (Again, not sure this is something I should be proud of)
The team is doing the USAT challenge for these three months and we post our daily workout totals. I am the only
one who clearly is putting in the hours to try and get better and be a FOPer.

Now, again, who has it right? In my case my kids are gone now, and it is taking nothing away from my family or boss, and it never
would. But for many I read on ST, they have their priorities backwards, IMO.

Again, great luck with your races!! We do need to remember to say thank you to our parents once in a while!!

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I think he's talking about starting from birth, the potential might be there. Whatever life has thrown at those folks in Florida, they're now out of the 8:30 running. To use a somewhat more realistic example, I'll use me:

When I was 19, I was starting to get into running via the Army; I could run 2 miles in 12:33, and was pretty lean. If I had continued on into endurance sports, an 8:30 might be possible right now for me. Instead, I got into lifting, and ran only when I had to. I always biked, and got into that and then tri. From 2000 on, I spent more time on endurance sports and quit lifing entirely, but not before I got up to 198# (at 5'7"). Now, at 31, I'm FINALLY faster than I was at 19. Because I spent so much of my 20's chasing big arms, I'll likely never pull an 8:30 IM- those years of aerobic development are gone. I can work down to below 10 hrs, and maybe close to 9:30 in 7-8 years. The changes to my frame and musculature during my 20's will never allow me to attain the sub 140# bodyweight needed for a guy of my height to go that fast for that long. The potential was originally there, but the intervening 30 years saw some choices that put it forever out of my reach. But hey, I'll ALWAYS be able to knock out 20 pullups. A guy who always works at endurance sports, IM specifically, just might be able to hit that 8:30 mark if they live the right overall lifestyle.

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If I don't, who will? -Me
It's like being bipolar in opinion is a requirement around here. -TripleThreat

Fleck, I have a question for you. You often preach that athletes should spend five years doing sprints and olympic distance races before doing their first IM. However, most, if not a very large percentage of people doing Ironman's for the first time are already in their early to mid 30s. Wouldn't waiting five years squander what you concede are their peak performance years?

that's just silly.
Leaving aside the huge question of how many men could race that fast - have _any_ women raced that fast? Or do they not count as humans? the top women pros have certainly made the efforts that the top male pros have.

-charles

The 99% statement is a silly one and ignores disability, women (50% of the 99%) and physical makeup. If you say that many active, young, hard training men with no physical problems could go 8.30 then thats another thing. They whoever make up a small percentage of the population. So yes maybe you were one of those that "blew it".

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Andrew

http://www.theyogapod.com

You often preach that athletes should spend five years doing sprints and olympic distance races before doing their first IM. However, most, if not a very large percentage of people doing Ironman's for the first time are already in their early to mid 30s. Wouldn't waiting five years squander what you concede are their peak performance years?

That's an excellent question and definately something to be considered. I think that it's really going to depend on the athlete's background when they start tri training. Are they starting absolutly from scratch with endurance training? Do they have some background history in another sport. What is their weight and body type? What is their mental apptitude? How much time do they have available to train? What are the goals? . . and so on.

Another consideration is chronological age and athletic age - often people who start late, can peak late. Gordo would be an example of that.

Lots to consider. Optimally I still think that 4 - 5 full years of building up is best, but for some, for one reason or another, they may be less.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

You read into things to much.

I believe we're saying the same thing. "Blew it" is relative- I'll be quite happy w/ sub-10. To go much further would require sacrifices I'm not willing to make. If someone is willing to make those sacrifices, cool for them. Everyone's got their own life to lead, right?

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If I don't, who will? -Me
It's like being bipolar in opinion is a requirement around here. -TripleThreat

Can't believe I missed this thread for so long its fascinating. I will add in my worthless drivel.

First endurance is much more trainable than speed. I am not sure anyone has mentioned that, I am willing to bet there is a greater pool of humans on earth genetically that can go 8:30 in an IM, compared to those that can go 10.5 in a 100m. There are just a much smaller pool of people trying to go 8:30, also the sport is an infant compared to track and technology could bring 8:30 down to 8:15 within 5 years. I think there are a TON of people with the ability to go 8:30 that just aren't trying or are locked into other bigger money sports, ie: Lance...somebody had to mention him.

Dev...PhD = every normal baby (ie: absent a birth defect) born in the world has the intellect to become a PhD in most if not all subjects, based on current standards. Of course those standards would change dramatically if more people dedicated themselves to studying, thank god for laziness because I don't want to go to school anymore.

Finally, sadly the vast majority of people will never achieve their true potential in anything.

I think that what Dev is trying to get across is the simple reality that in life there is a pointy end and triathlon is-no-different. While I completely agree that you should believe and pursue your goals by giving it all you have - sub 8:30 is the definition of uncommon, elite, special, ridiculously fast or whatever else you want to use.

Desire, belief, and endurance are some of the great lessons we learn and perfect in triathlon, but even if you have all there of those it is just a totally different realm to go 8:30 - those are our precious few, our 1 percenters (yes that one competitor radio intro). With the explosion of triathlon in the we are seeing faster and faster times from the weekend warriors/age groupers, but some performance times belong to a special few. Who will be in that group gets decided every year in Roth, AZ, Canada, UK, etc - but it is still a very special small group. It is the same with a sub 1:50 OLY or a sub 3:50 Half-IM or sub 2:20 marathon or an Olympic trials slot - our beloved sport is no different.

Will that special group grow? Sure, if we had 1/2mm Iron warriors racing then maybe we'd see more sub 8:30s, but I doubt the percentage would change much :)

What did we see at Roth 07 = 10 guys. At Kona last year? 7 guys - that is it:
1 08:15:34 McCormack, Chris
2 08:19:04 Alexander, Craig
3 08:21:30 Sindballe, Torbjorn
4 08:22:33 DeBoom, Timothy
5 08:23:31 Vanhoenacker, Marino
6 08:25:49 Lieto, Chris
7 08:26:00 Llanos, Eneko



1996 Kona:
1 Luc Van Lierde 27 Belgium 08:04:08

2 Thomas Hellriegel 25 Germany 08:06:07

3 Greg Welch 31 Australia 08:18:57

4 Peter Reid 27 Canada 08:24:37

5 Dave Scott 42 Colorado 08:28:31

Thunderlegs good luck and keep at it, you might become a part of that special crew someday, but if you don't you'll just be like the rest of us and there ain't no shame in that.

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//semi retired - old school = http://www.iwilltri.com //

But where do you get this stuff?

If you can do 10:30 and "intend" to go 8:30,then make your "intentions" clear.
There is no I'm gonna do this and that first.
No,,,I'm gonna go 8:30,I believe I can do it ,this is how I'm gonna do it,work hard at it ,and do it.

It might also help to hire a coach like Johnnyo who can give expert advice as well as positive reinforcement.
The more people who believe in you and your goals ,the easier the goal is attained.

Btw, with your Phd , did they tell you that there are really 12 helixes , not two?
I didn't think so....