The WTC is a business, not a triathlon organization..


That said, if they are actually going to do that, that's really cheap of them...

They have everyone by the balls and are squeezing.

If it doesn't happen then they can have the athletes cover this cost in other (more hidden) ways, eg overall price increases in all areas etc.

They have a monopoly on a product a lot of people want. At least with an elected body there is in theory something that can be done about it.

Hawaii Ironman and Ironman in general is a wonderful thing but there are a few things around the edges that leave a nasty taste.

The main problem I have with this is not that all the pros will have to pony up x$ for a drug test, but that it will make it even easier to cheat. In order to get PED's I have to have a supplier - likely a doctor. What's to say that I don't have that doctor/lab in my pocket? This is total BS...

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If it were true, which is just rumor right now, it would just further confirm for me why I don't do M-dot races anymore. Yup, a lot of money to be mugged on a swim course that's too crowded, stuck behind, or in, huge inadvertent packs of cyclists because the roads can't handle the number of racers and paying exhorbitant fees because they've done an outstanding job of convincing people that they're not a true "Ironman" unless they do an M-dot race.

I don't think this is what John Collins and Gordon Haller and the rest of 'em had in mind when they came up with the race.

Tony

indeed...although they could require the tests to be done by accredited labs...anyway, I very strongly disagree with the pros having to pay with their own money for these tests.

Sure they could - but even a 100% reputable lab can't account for whose samples they get to work with. This makes submitting false samples so easy it's laughable. But yea, pros shouldn't have to pay for their own testing either.

I heard next year there's a $50 surcharge for AG finishers to cover the cost of the medals... ;)

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also, you'll have to take some cash with you at the aid stations...

I smell a Starbucks francise opportunity here!

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IMHO, WTC should bear the cost, but all pros should be required to come to Hawaii seven days in advance of the race submit to a mandatory drug screen in Hawaii with one of the certified laboratories. The results should be out by Wednesday with an opportunity to re-test ( at the athletes expense) if they are not satisfied with the result. If the athlete is not clean, they do not start. By requiring all pro's to test, no individual pro will be singled out. You can add a random component for age groupers if you think that is necessary.

I did a quick web search to get a handle on the costs for Olympic type drug testing. I found a range of $300-500 per test. Does anyone have accurate information?

How could anyone get a certificate that states they are clean unless it is done post race? They could have a certificate issued on the starting line and then have a water bottle loaded with any number of substances.

Funding is available to athletes from giverning bodies for mandatory drug tests conducted by sports governing bodies etc but maybe not WTC as they are a money scamming monopoly. (doh, typo that should be money making company).

Remember it was a French magazine so probably more rumor than truth.

It's a good move on WTC's part.....matter of fact, I think it's a wonderful decision!

It puts the burden on the athlete rather than the race organization to PROACTIVELY look at the situation rather than relying on the testing procedure to find the cheats. It allows the athlete to work with whomever they are comfortable and trusting to do the test.

In the "rare" instance that an athlete were to test post-race, there is recourse and a baseline for the measurements....along with all sorts of legal implications.

If I were WTC, I would also put a claus into the pro entry in the form of damages if an athlete is found with PEDs. The Nina situation was an embarrassment for WTC and the entire IM community.....

I'd much rather the pro community be more self-regulated, but that simply isn't possible. Drug test wouldn't exist if people didn't use them for their advantage.

I don't think this is what John Collins and Gordon Haller and the rest of 'em had in mind when they came up with the race

Good for you , Big K. I coudn't agree more.

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thats just stupid of WTC. What other high profile sport asks the top pros to pay for their own drug testing? None. It's a slap in the face of drug testing credilbility. Whoever said its a good idea has not ever drug tested, I'm willing to bet. Lets assume I'm clean right now, piss in a cup, put he sample in the fridge. When my lovely lab kit arrives 7 months later, I remove the clean sample from the fridge, drop it in the package, seal the three layers of tape, initial where appropiate and send it back. In the mean time I've taken a shitload of drugs and can actually now ride comfortably next to Francois chatting instead of behind him and wondering WTF I got myself into by riding w/him.

No one watched me pee, seal the cup, seal the tape, and send it back. Hey maybe my neighbor is clean and he would pee for me. They might wonder why i have nicotine in my sample but hey I'm a pack a day guy.

It's a moronic idea. I think the pros should just stay away if that is the case. Besides if your not top 5 OV in Kona it's a money losing proposition. I also think it is against WADA,IOC regs.

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how to answer that post....hmmm....

f...in' bollocks mate! the WTC let Rutger Beke race even though he tested positive before the race and they had all the necessary info...
How about your work ask you to pay for a doping test every couple of months?

I don't disagree with you....

Yep, they knew about Beke, so did Beke. But, there was no policy in place to deal with the situation. It appears they are now moving to that direction. IMO, it's WTC's way of covering their ass for other people's disregard for the obvious rules.

As for the cost, that's another situation.....

I don't disagree with the proactive approach but certainly not with putting the cost on the pros. Let's face it for most pros, $500 is a lot of money.

Francois...It can be done cheaper than $300. I have to be drug tested for the Ultras I race and in the USA it costs me $70 --I can get away with a base panel for 50 -- and a written letter from my Doctor that I am healthy enough to race. EVERYONE is required these two letters prior to racing for each race (one year I dumped close to 500 in these fees alone). Post race the race organization is required to drug test 1st M/F and then one finisher at random (of course this is IUTA rules). I have never finished 1st but have heard it is both a urine analysis and a blood test..last thing I want to be doing when I am dehydrated. I have watched them take them straight from the course straight to the bathroom where they watch you pee in a cup. I guess when the World record is on the line, they take it seriously...as they should.

Here is where the problem exists..do you know how easy it is to forge a document? Realistically there is no way of knowing what the document is from the other Country. I would feel comfortable in knowing they got tested AFTER the race by the organization. Having the athletes tested before..hahahahahaha I have missed my drug tests before races, it is easy to do..miss one flight and you miss the test. I was still allowed to race. Of course as slow as I go, what is in my blood isn't up for arguments :-) they call it sludge. What IS cool about the pre-drug testing, on several occasions athletes have found out their hematocrit is way too low or 'other' things are off.

Costs of drug testing if it is req'd after is covered in every one of my races, but pre only one on the series forces everyone, and that race fee is the same going rate as the others, which is significantly less than any Iron fee.

Not every athelte gets their blood work done, and I couldn't fathom racing w/o the blood work - I get mine run a minimum of 4xs a year..so for the PROs to bring their own report..I don't see it as a big deal at all. The Pros are racing at a level I can't even comprehend speed wise, I understand the bulk training, and I can't see how they get away without doing their own blood work. My vitamin intake is directly affected by my blood work.

There is no clear cut way of knowing who uses what..and it sickens (sp?) me to know someone would DELIBERATLY cheat..whats the point? The originators of the Iron NEVER dreamed of ANYONE cheating...why would you, it is you against the elements.

~eileen

Maybe our discussion should be what kind of doping policy any or all race organizations should adopt… what is fair, what will ensure cheaters get caught, what will deter those from cheating. Why does the WTC get singled out in this discussion… why not include ALL race organizations. Why not include the ITU and/or the National Federation and their roles in doping control.



Pro's are ... just that... pros. Do they not have a role in ensure that their sport is clean? Isn't it to their benefit for a number of reasons (financially, they make their living doing the sport) to have the appearance to all that their sport is clean. Why not incorporate (partner) them in the process... included in that should be some of the ethical as well as some the financial burden as well to that end. Ask Normann Stadler if he wouldn't mind ponying up a few extra Euros a year for a better (read cleaner) image for Ironman. The perception in Germany is the shits for our sport doping wise... I heard he is having trouble maintaining sponsors as a direct result of a number of doping issues with Germany triathletes in 2004.



Personally, looks to me that the current policy is working. The WTC caught a cheater this year in Kona and she got her cheating ass kicked out from our sport for two years… not long enough for me. If I was the WTC, any cheater that was caught dopings in one of my races they would NEVER be allowed to race a WTC sanctioned event again. The WTC have a business that happens to be Triathlon. They have a brand to market and to protect and my belief is if you have messed with it… I would never give you another chance mess with it again. One strike… your out… forever… go play somewhere else.Fuck off.



Smitty8: The Beke issue: Beke’s national triathlon federation has still not sanction him even though I understand his A and B samples tested positive. What position legally would the WTC be in to deny him entry into the 2004 race? I am speculating here… but I bet he hasn’t received his pay check from the WTC yet for his placing in the money in Kona 2004. I also bet the WTC won’t even consider payment until all his appeals and legal maneuvering is completed.



Shawn

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Shawn Skene

"Personally, looks to me that the current policy is working. The WTC caught a cheater this year in Kona and she got her cheating ass kicked out from our sport for two years…"

She only got caught because she wasn't too clever, and used EPO way too close to the race. The testing currently being done would not catch someone with much knowledge of how to use PEDs. A drug testing program isn't worth much without random on the spot in-season testing.

Deke

Exactly.

I have asked this question here repeatedly, and never heard a response: What is the nature of the relationship between the the WTC, the USAT and the ITU? The nature of that relationship is at the root of all this. My understanding is that enforcement of the rules, is up to the USAT, not the WTC.

Fleck

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

"Pro's are ... just that... pros. Do they not have a role in ensure that their sport is clean? Isn't it to their benefit for a number of reasons (financially, they make their living doing the sport) to have the appearance to all that their sport is clean. Why not incorporate (partner) them in the process... included in that should be some of the ethical as well as some the financial burden as well to that end. Ask Normann Stadler if he wouldn't mind ponying up a few extra Euros a year for a better (read cleaner) image for Ironman. The perception in Germany is the shits for our sport doping wise... I heard he is having trouble maintaining sponsors as a direct result of a number of doping issues with Germany triathletes in 2004.
"

sure, if you want to do that ok...but make it a REAL pro sport...you know a lot of pro sports where a tenth place (other than Hawaii) for a race that you can't do every week end, gives you $500???

How many are living of the sport, and only of the sport, with nothing else needed on the side (like a part time job, some coaching etc...)

then the WTC, a company that's already making a lot wants pros to pay for it??

it doesn't matter if it's $500 0r $200...the point is that the WTC is a rich company that's already pushing a lot, not paying much, and it finds a way to put this burden on someone else...

Shawn - Just because WTC "caught" Nina doesn't mean the process worked. The problem was that she able able to line up next to clean athletes, $%@#$ up the race for the clean athletes in mid-race, and totally $%@#$ the TV coverage and press surrounding the event. I'd say damages were perhaps in the 7 figure range....

Believe it or not, WTC is a business and sponsor money flips the bills. Since I'm in business and do plently of entertainment...I can only imagine what lip service WTC had to do to save face.

If I were head of WTC, I would take any and all steps to ensure that situation does not happen again. Punishment doesn't appear to be an adequate determent, so proactive steps are needed in the front end.

If no one was using PEDs, it wouldn't be an issue....

Agree.

I would assume that it's the USTA and WADA, we hope completely neutral and fair bodies would be responsible for this. It's not events nor athletes that should tale this on. Simple Reason: both events and professional athletes are business entities that may be biased in how they view this sort of thing.

I agree that it would be good for athletes to have some form of "certificate" saying that they are clean. Paula Ratcliffe, and other athletes have been pushing for this for some time. However, this sort of program must be run through and driven by a neutral body such as a sports federation and/or WADA, not events or the athletes themselves.

Fleck

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

"sure, if you want to do that ok...but make it a REAL pro sport...you know a lot of pro sports where a tenth place (other than Hawaii) for a race that you can't do every week end, gives you $500??? "

Froncois,

Key point.

What I find strange is we hear nothing from the pros themselves on this. I don't want to get to critical or load these guys/gals up with to much, but I have sat in a room with them when deceisons have been made or suggested, that directly affect their livelyhood and the only response back is a shrug of the shoulders and the talk soon turns back to training or other small talk. It seems odd to me that there is not more collective force coming from the pros themselves to initiate changes that are in their best interest.

Fleck

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog