From memory of the Belgium thread they were amateurs, they were all trying to get their best time, and they weren't purposely blocking (I forgot if one got a penalty). They were certainly legally pacing, but that wouldn't likely be against the new wording either.

The wording got changed largely IMO because the pacer wasn't even trying to race for himself. And of course they were Pros not amatuers

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Styrrell

If I recall correctly, they were accused of a lot of things, from blocking to drafting, all of which the accusers backed off after talking it through. Varying your speed up hills in a way that is not precisely what your competitor would like is not "blocking" nor against the rules.

The only remaining issue was that one brother was intentionally pacing the other. He had already KQ'd and his goal for that race was to help the other brother KQ. This definitely seemed against the spirit of the rule for not assisting others.

Then again someone less lazy than I is welcome to go re-read that mile-long thread and fact check my recollection.

I wasn't a competitor. Different age group.

After long talks with Jimmy and the Belgians themselves, my "blocking" comments were wrong. It was not illegal. Pain in the ass, but not illegal.

Pacing or drafting, well, who the hell knows. I didn't sit there with a stop watch and laser tape measure, so damned if I know if it was "actual" drafting.

Pacing? Well, it was brotherly love. I'm kind of jealous. They turned this selfish sport into a team event. Did the first brother that already KQ'd abandon his race to help his brothers (actually, he was really only trying to help his twin, the other brother just happen to be there)? I don't know. It doesn't matter, the twin was so damn fast he would have gotten a Kona spot anyways.

Ah crap, I just happen to look at their Kona results! LOL!!!

Before anyone says anything, it is VERY likely they did NOT draft each other.

Just damn funny they crossed the line together.

 
Do you think you're opinion on the whole team work thing could of been different *if maybe one of them had served a suspension for PED's in the past?

i think the operative behavior, or motive, in this is "race ambition." if the belgians, or the raelerts for that matter, are riding in a pseudo-pack, changing pace legally, not committing a position foul, each racing to win or for a high place, no problem. they shouldn't be penalized BECAUSE they're friends, lovers, brothers, sisters, spouses.

but let's say one of these swam, then rode in front of the other for the entire bike leg, then dropped out after the bike. that's suspicious. that would smack as a race ridden only for the benefit of the other's eventual finish place.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Is the issue with the incident that sparked the change in the rules not more to do with a female athlete being paced by a male?

Didn't something similar happen to Paula Radcliffe in her marathon WR? Because she was paced by men the WR won't stand as its deemed she gained a competitive advantage over other women being paced by women.

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#GottaRun
http://twitter.com/runningmatters_
http://www.feileacanmor.com

Hmm, not sure. Whether or not they did some type of wrong-doing in the past doesn't necessarily mean that what I witnessed the entire ride at IMNYC (I was they one with them 90% of the time) was illegal.

Because I didn't fully understand the rules, I thought their actions were illegal. Jimmy R spent a good hour or 2 on the phone with me beating it into me that I was wrong.

However, I would be disappointed in anyone that used PEDs, especially if it was one of them. From what I understand, they are regarded as being exceptional athletes and looked up to. It would be dissapointing, but would not change my opinion of team work.

But is this for Pro's only?

I think this would be really hard to prove in age groups.

the issue, the problem, the visibility, is with pros. i think that WTC is going to be very reticent to get involved in marshaling this for AGers. the problem is mostly confined to women pros as the very front of the field, but it has been a persistent problem for decades. now that problem has been finally acknowledged and addressed, for which i am happy.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

With Radcliff the race was run under the rules, but then they changed the rules after. Pretty idioctic.

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Styrrell

I don't think dropping out is key to this at all. Consider two scenarios

1) My friend/lover/brother/sister/spouse is a similar speed to me. I race next to them but get injured at the beginning of the run and I drop out.

2) I'm significantly faster than my friend/blah/blah/blah but I race next to him/her the whole time all the way to the finish because I was pacing them.

Obviously #2 is worse but is impossible to police. The problem here is "each racing to win or for a high place". Define high place? I don't disagree with you, but I object to trying to police it my trying to make a gray thing more black and white based on certain events occurring, such as dropping out.

Honest question: Is the persistent problem, as you see it, partner/partner drafting or is it women pros drafting men pros regardless of whether they know each other or plan it? I ask because the partner/partner drafting has been an issue but so has the other, mainly a result of the stagger starts or lack of stagger. The women in the original article were quick to call out the orchestrated drafting at Miami, but I don't know if they would be as quick to call them out if it were not quite as orchestrated or if it were an athlete with a 'cleaner' past.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

"Is the persistent problem, as you see it, partner/partner drafting or is it women pros drafting men pros regardless of whether they know each other or plan it?"

i think the problem is partner/partner drafting. i think WTC has pretty much solved the problem with this announcement, and the follow up announcements that they promise.

it doesn't solve every problem, but it largely solves this problem. there had been, for many years, the problem of women pros in packs with male AGers who refused to be dropped and who would coalesce around the women pros. this is inevitable in a large mass start race. separate starts for male pros, female pros, then AGers largely abates this problem. but we used to not have this. we'd go to IM germany in roth, 20 years ago, and you could spectate standing stationary and know precisely which woman was in which pack of 60 AGers because the paula pack, the fernanda pack, etc., would roll by equidistant from each other on each lap. this wasn't paula's fault. or fernanda's. it was the fault of the AGers who paula passed and who refused to get dropped, because the overtaker was a woman.

so, the major problems have been solved, altho i'm sure you and amy see plenty of problems now that she faces.

because pro waves has solved certain problems this has created a need, which can be filled by a male pro just dropping back out of his wave and waiting for his sig other, or one male pro traveling to a big race to sacrifice his race for another male pro with whom he's in close association. no, it's not always going to be easy to marshal this. however, you have to start by laying down a marker, and saying you intend to marshal it. it's taken 20 years of whining in order for a major race organization or officiating crew to get to this point, and, i'm glad we're now there. kudos to WTC for taking this step.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

 
I certainly think Jimmy's intention is a step in the right direction - but I would also like to say I think the wording of the piece and also your comments Dan (whether intentional or not) really imply this is purely the fault of the female racers.

I don't think thats the case - and I think it's far too simplistic to just imply 'hey girls you need to stop drafting off your fellas'

Sam generally comes out toward the front of the womens swim pack and her biggest complaint since racing 70.3's has been male athletes - generally lower ability 'elites' affecting her race. Usually their ego gets bruised when a women passes them and they either change their own race strategy and thus pacing and get into a battle to stay ahead of her, or they draft off her and stand out like a sore thumb to the maybe 1 or 2 officials that are on the course that should be further back policing the girls that are actually drafting.

People have argued for some time now for totally different starts for the males and females, but organisors still fail to recognise the problems, they'll send the male pros off, 2 minutes later the females, and then the elite amatuer males a further 2 mins back....you're asking for problems.

If they had a totally different start time, perhaps 15 minutes between each - then and only then would it be possible to say without a shadow of doubt that the Fuchs of this world had actually gone from their own race to supporting that of another athlete.

Thoughts?

"your comments Dan (whether intentional or not) really imply this is purely the fault of the female racers"

i don't see how or where you get that.

"male athletes - generally lower ability 'elites' affecting her race. Usually their ego gets bruised when a women passes them"

did you read my post just above yours?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

If they had a totally different start time, perhaps 15 minutes between each - then and only then would it be possible to say without a shadow of doubt that the Fuchs of this world had actually gone from their own race to supporting that of another athlete.

Thoughts?//

I agree that 2 minutes is not enough time, and 15 would be good for anything 1/2 and under from the women to AG'ers. From the men pros to women you do not need that much, 5 minutes should do it. Ironmans maybe 20+ minutes to the AG'ers. And i think that a general assumption that if you are a pro man that gets caught by women, you ride behind them unless you can attack and get completely clear. I used to do this myself when Paula would catch me in hawaii. I would just plant myself out of her zone behind and watch the race. She was always alone, so it was just her and i, but i never went ahead to pace, and honestly i don't think she even knew i was there most the time. But of course back then we all started together and our swim bike combos were just about equal at that frigging race. Anywhere else in the world on shorter courses, she could not get a sniff of the men pros, but hawaii was a different story, have to factor in that 4th event, how you race in extreme heat. No one beat her on that front, man or woman..

Yes I read that one Dan - and pretty much everything you've written seems to lay the problem on the women's doorstep.


May be I'm being too sensitive (it's the 90's us men are allowed to be now...)


But it's an organisational problem - that leads to the problems you've talked about...which are a small part of the greater problem. IMO

Had to check my calendar on that one....I thought maybe Ol Doc got the flux capacitor to work...

Both male and female are to blame. She accepted assistance, he interfered with the women's race.

Now, what about AG men on a 2 loop run course. AG men are on their first loop, pro women on their second loop. AG male is running at a pace that the female pro is running at. The female pro tucks in behind the male AG to avoid sun and wind and paces off him. Allowed?

Had to check my calendar on that one


My thought exactly.

I might be too tired to do the math to see how likely your run scenario would be, but I tried.. Seems like men who are running the same pace as a female pro (that matters) wouldn't be so far behind (13 miles on a 2 lap run course, 8ish on a 3 lap run course). For women running 3:15 pace or faster (the pace that I *think* makes a female pro 'matter' in a race...ie, in contention of podium/cash/kona points) that's between 1 hour to 90 minutes behind that the male would have to be. I don't think there are many men running 3:15 marathons that are that far behind the pro women, 3:15 marathons would probably put you about the same time as the female pros who podium.

Agreed. I think as long as the start differences (as Salmon Steve mentioned) are greater than a couple of minutes, then the problem is generally solved. In Kona it was 5 minutes and that I think caused the issue with Caroline's and maybe Leanda's penalties. At Cozumel this weekend, one of the girls was supposedly drafting a slower male pro for 1-2 loops. I'm married to one of the faster swimmers...and it's really not that difficult for them to make up 5+ minutes on some of the male pros especially over 2.4m/3.8k. So, I think that if a 10-15 minute separation is made standard for a 140.6 distance and a 5-10 minute stagger for a 70.3 event, a lot of the issue will be solved. At least, my personal opinion.

For Prattzc comments, I don't have a problem with the running scenario mentioned. On a 3 loop course especially it's not that uncommon to see.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

"pretty much everything you've written seems to lay the problem on the women's doorstep."

so when i wrote, "this wasn't paula's fault. or fernanda's. it was the fault of the AGers who paula passed and who refused to get dropped, because the overtaker was a woman," your take away was that i was blaming the women?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

"one of the girls was supposedly drafting a slower male pro for 1-2 loops."

my question is, if you're a male pro, and you exit the water with pro women who started 5 minutes behind you, and your speed on the bike is such that pro women can't be dropped by you, where did you qualify for your pro card?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Back in '08 at IM CdA when my cycling wasn't quite up to ST standards, but my running was still good, I remember passing the lead woman in the race (I believe Heather Wurtle) early in my run (my first lap, her second). So I can definitely see this as possible on a two loop course and even more so on a three loop course.