I haven't gotten mine yet, but I don't think I'd ride them around for a long time on a group ride, but would still pull over and fix a flat.

i don't see why you couldn't or wouldn't use a Dart or a plug along with the liner. i don't see this as either/or. but i'll ask and report back.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I imagine that in many, and maybe even most, cases I would also pull over and fix the flat rather than ride on the liners in a group. But I've encountered enough situations where the liners could be useful to make me think they're worth the investment. For instance, a few weeks back we were riding in modestly cold temps (upper 30s) and had just come off a segment where we take the pace way up and so had a light sweat. We were on the Chicago lakefront when someone got a flat and there was a steady, cold breeze coming off the lake. By the time the flat was changed, I was shivering and pretty miserable. We were only about 8 miles from home, so that's a situation where it would have been nice to be able to keep going either all the way home or at least to someplace warmer/ sheltered. A lot of guys here will go out in the teens and temps so low you really don't want to stop at all. And then there's the somewhat sad reality that on our way out of the city we go through a few neighborhoods where, all things equal, I'd prefer not to stop if I can avoid it.

I thought there might be a possibility that the liner could interfere with either the insertion of the dart or its ability to seal. I haven't used either a dart or a liner, so I don't have a good picture in my head as to how tight the liner is against the inner side of the tire.

to me, there are 2 reasons that the liner makes sense to me.

1. riding the flat in, whether in a race or in training.
2. flatting on a descent. over my life i've had my fair share of flats on high speed descents, as in, 45+mph descents. once i had a double flat, pop-pop, going 50mph. there just is no way to express how uncomfortable that is. if that happens on a curve? you're down.

but maybe not with a liner. i don't know.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Certainly within mountain biking (where liners are much more widely used) it's common to be able to use a dart or Dynaplug or regular fixer fork+anchovy/bacon, with a liner in there. Defo not an either/or situation.

I'm not sure I understand the usefulness in triathlon. Perhaps if you had 2+ flats in race and it would make the difference between finishing and not. But how many people get 3 flats in a race? Once in a lifetime occurrence or you're using Corsa Speeds :) But if you flat half way through a race, you would want to change it, which will take a few minutes as opposed to riding on a tyre at 30psi for 90kms..

Are you going to throw some tacks down on a steep descent and then run over them at 50 mph so that we can find out? ;-)

When you get the first flat, you theoretically don’t need to stop. Or if you’re descending fast, and you get a flat, you probably won’t wreck (as bad?!). If you’re just riding hard and flat, you have less risk of catastrophically falling

So if you get a flat 90km out, then yup, you probably would stop.

Besides the $$, seems like a no brainer to add to my tubeless wheels.

Say, just curious... I'm still using inner tubes & I literally can't remember the last time I got a flat. Is it maybe just a matter of checking tires/tire pressure?

If at some point I'm forced to go back to the office, the liners are definitely on my consideration list. But again, 40+ mile work commute round trip, zero flats for like ever.

P.S. I started biking in Chicago as well. Brutal... you guys rule!

My understanding of these liners is that if you flatted, the tyre pressure dropped to 30psi and also you need specific tools to change it which are too impractical to carry in a race. I can change a tub in 2 mins, why wouldn't I do this instead of riding 90/100+ kms on a 30psi tyre. I'd be totally cooked and would have wasted a crap load of time riding a semi-flat tyre. I can't see these as of much benefit, certainly not an improvement on tubs which you can change quickly and you can ride flat at 30km/hr+.

I agree. I'm not sure in what race scenario they would be of benefit. Maybe 10kms from the finish and that's it. Perhaps if you flatted on a descent, but then a tub would also be fine. These are only good for training.

I've learned there's a certain class of "tubbie guy" who are just always going to be tubbie guy, and it's not worth arguing over. :)

No special tool is needed, though. And no one is saying ride 90km on a flat, just like you wouldn't ride 90km on a flat tubbie.

Nah I'm keen to try new tech. I like the idea of something you can ride flat. What I read is you needed a special tool to change them. And it was a massive PITA to change. If that isn't the case and you can change one in a few minutes then it's cool.

So if you go completely flat on tubeless with the liner, you just pull the liner out and insert a tube, right?
What are you going to do with the liner?
Litter it or strap it around your chest/waist, like in the old days?
Just trying to picture this with sealant and all....ewww.

You can do it without a tool apparently, but it's a complete PITA hence the reason Vittoria produce a special tool plus 6 separate clips that you use to get the tyre off! It looks to me like that last thing you want to be doing in a race is pissing around changing this. Happy to be proven wrong, cos I want to switch to tubless.

I'm unclear on that for actual tube changing. When you're changing a tube you typically don't take the tire off. You just pull one bead over. I don't see why you couldn't just pull a bead over and strip out the liner like you would a tube. It's soft and pliable.

Maybe the liner makes it harder to break the bead, by exerting pressure? That's the only thing I can think of.

I'll know better when I get mine to try out.

Yeah on the GCN video he was saying it's much harder to get one bead over because of the liner. He used like a crimping tool, which pulls the tyre over for you. So I guess in theory you could do it without a tool. I just want something easy and foolproof and quick when changing a flat hence the reason I'm on tubs. But my roadie is now clincher/tubless and I'm selling my tub race wheels.

Ah, it all makes sense. When pulling a tight bead over you push the opposite bead into the center channel that most tubeless rims have now. I could see the liner occupying that center channel and making it very hard to keep the opposite bead there - it'd keep getting pushed back out by the liner if you weren't holding it there.

I'll experiment....

The liner prevents the bead from dropping into the center channel of the rim, so you get less slack to pull the bead over the rim edge. Like with a rim that isn’t up to ETRO (?) standards or with a shallow center channel. Same cluster....same old problem (Hello Easton!).
I wonder if the next version may have a disconnect link or something, so the liner can be moved out of the way....

Check out some of the online reviews on these things. They apparently sit tight against the inside of the rim, hence they fill the center groove we usually rely on for lifting the bead after breaking one side loose. To me this really makes these things of limited use for those of us versed in TLR usage and maintenance.

I was initially thinking that this would make things really bad for those that already struggle with TLR and things like using plugs/bacon, maintaining sealant levels and dealing with swapping in a tube for a cutdown tire and sidewall. But it may be that those folks get these liners put in at the LBS and when shit goes wrong they can limp home and take their bike to the LBS to have it fixed?!? I still know riders that take their bikes in to LBS for flat tires.

Like others have mentioned, I can’t see these things helping with race issues unless it happened right at the end or near T2 in a tri.

ETA: sorry. You guys worked this out while I was still pecking on iPad...

It would be optimal if this foam could be made to maintain a higher pressure when deflated... Maybe offer different types based on what is the min puncture pressure you want. I think now its similar to 30psi or so maybe make one that simulates 60 psi so you can finish a race on it with slight crr increase but not to the point where fixing a flat would take you less time. I am thinking that as long as the foam compresses away from the tire so its not compressing as it rolls it wouldnt affect the crr until you get a flat but increasing this pressure mininum would make it less of a problem... That said some people might just run them flat like other liners in the market just that it will still rob watts. But a drop from 80-85 psi down to say 60 psi i could probably live with.

Does anyone have any real world experience riding these liners after a flat? I was curious about the accuracy of Vittorias claims about speed and distances that can be maintained on the insert.

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"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
Hunter S. Thompson