Wow. It's like Bill Burke has some sort of mind control device.

USAT: Some members are complaining, Could we see the #s? BB: The #s are fine. Move along. USAT: Members, The #s are fine. Move along.

Jim: I have serious questions, like who the testing entity is. BB: The #s are fine, don't worry about the testing entity. Move along. Jim: The #s are fine, not worried about the testing entity. Move along.

Leaving all other bits aside, this does not mean that Korff was not involved, although BB may have been the RD of record. From the NYCTri web site:

"Bill Burke and John Korff organize the New York City Triathlon on behalf of the New York City Sports Commission and NYC2012. The Ford NYC Triathlon is an official event of New York’s Olympic bid effort.

Burke, President of Premier Event Management, and Korff, President of Korff Enterprises, also organized the 2004 Olympic Triathlon Trials in Honolulu. In 2005 they are organizing the 2005 JAL Honolulu Triathlon and World Cup, and the 2005 JAL World Triathlon Championships (age group), both in sunny Honolulu. Burke is considered the pre-eminent organizer of multi-sport events in America. He organizes over 30 triathlons, duathlons, and running events annually.

John Korff is a consultant to NYC2012. Korff organizes a women’s professional tennis tournament, hot air balloon festivals, and manages sponsorships at various PGA golf tournaments, and is on the national board of directors of the US Tennis Association. "

In addition, whoever has the login "usatri" and speaks with the imperial "we" in referring to USATriathlon on the USATriathlon forum, referred to Korff as the race promoter and directed questions to him, as did the Event Services Director.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

just because one has a title does not mean they are also a communications and/or PR genius.

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Train hard...race well.
www.jimmishler.com
"Jim, I happen to agree with you" DougStern

This is an intriguing thread, primarily because it shows a lack of integrity on the part of USAT. I've never done NYC, probably never will as it is 3,000 mile away, but I do plenty of USAT races and would like to know that they truly support a safe race. It is time for USAT to stop ignoring this issue and release the data whether the RD wants it released or not. I've also joined the usatriathlon.org forum and will post the same comment there.

Many thanks for pursuing this, Jim.

nice call on the jedi mind trick. what every happened to our semi-literate friend li wei? i was starting to enjoy trying to decipher her pig latin. it reminded me of my days in high school struggling through spanish and latin.

seriously, this whole thing has become a big farse and i hope some lawyers with some free time on their hands lay it to these guys. it's quite obvious that they knew that the water was unfit to swim in, lied about it to keep the race a tri and now are doing their damnest to cover their asses now that people are questioning them. you think that they would have at least been smart enough to have conducted a bogus test. i could see these knuckleheads filling a pot up with water with tap water, doing whatever test(s) should have been done on the race water on the pot of tap water, gotten the necessary positive results, and then giving each other mad props for having generated good evidence should any inquiring minds question the validity of their water findings.

NYC Tri - the Ford Pinto of Triathlons

does anyone else note a similarity between the NYC Tri and what happened with the Pinto? Unseen safety issue compromised by cost and convenience at the expense of the consumer, stonewalling by the vendor and lack of responsiveness by the USAT....

http://www.fordpinto.com/blowup.htm or http://www.engineering.com/...y?contentId=41009014

A Ford engineer, who doesn't want his name used, comments: "This company is run by salesmen, not engineers; so the priority is styling, not safety."

Safety

Strange as it may seem, the Department of Transportation (NHTSA's parent agency) didn't know whether or not this was true. So it contracted with several independent research groups to study auto fires. The studies took months, which was just what Ford wanted.

I just read the forum on USAT.org where Kathy Majeta stated that the RD asked that information not be released. By the answers to all of her questions, it told me that she (USAT) was unwilling to release any relevant information. Notice that it is USAT.org. The org meaning non-profit. I'm not a lawyer, but doesn't non--profit mean that they are required to release any requested information? Wouldn't it take just a simple lawsuit to force them to release all documentation, notes, emails or phone records regarding this situation. I was actually kind of on their side about this until I read her reply to reggiedog.

yeah, it keeps getting weirder....to racap, in a marginally safe body of water when surrounding waters were closed for days and another swim was canceled, they held the NYC Tri but will not say why they determined the water was safe:

1. In response to muiltiple, direct questions the RD tells participants they "test the water everyday including today" before the race. After the race they say they test "every couple of days" but will not say when the tests took place.
2. The key issue is that 3" of rain fell over 3 days before the race, and that might pollute the water with direct sewer run-off. A test taken one day, will be invalid the next day if there is sigificant rainfall. There is a rainfall model to be applied for rain subsequent to a test.
3. There are multiple references to different testing agencies, but none can be determined.
4. The model was used in cancelling the NYC Tri's 2003 swim, but no one will say if the model was used to validate the safety of this year's swim.
5. Some people get sick after the triathlon.
6. Weeks of polite, direct questions go by without any substantive response from either the RD nor USAT on anything.
7. The RD says that he will send the documentation to USAT and have USAT release the documentation, then we find out 2 weeks later there is not documentation
8. The USAT says that it won't tell us anything about the test, not even who adminstered it or when it was done and that it will not respond to direct safety questions
9. Now it appears that the person represented himself as the RD for weeks wasn't the RD?!?

As always, there are more questions than answers (on a basic safety issue) and no one from the RD or USAT makes any attempt to make participants feel like there is anything other than a coverup of bad water data which they do not want anyone to know about.

According to the USATriathlon Web site, Bill Burke was the race director of record. According to the Ford NYCTri Web site, Burke and Korff are the co-promoters of the race. According to the people who work at USATriathlon (and speak for it), all enquiries (I feel so British when I spell it that way) in this matter were to be directed to Korff. I can't say how Korff represented himself, as I have had no contact with him.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

I too have just read the related posts on the USAT forum, and the one from USAT's Kathy Matejka on Friday, 19 August, is quite disturbing. The plot thickens?

My two cents: USATriathlon and those associated with the Ford NYCTri will now ignore any more requests for information short of a lawsuit or FOIA request, and wait for the whole mess to go away. They feel they've given all the information they want to, and will do no more.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Ken,I think it was "My Fair Lady" where the words were,"I think you got it." If there is no lawsuit from someone getting deathly sick or killed because of gastro problems, what publicity would you rather have for future races? I made a few people on Slowtwitch mad by not releasing numbers I don't have or, in two of the last three years, I had a duathlon and I can't promise you I won't have one again next year.
Triathletes are a tough bunch(read threads re Nationals and IMUTAH). They like to say they they beat the elements and nothing can deter them from finishing a race. This attitude would have probably given rise to more hate mail for the rd had he cancelled the swim than what you see here.

Bob Sigerson

Alright, so what do we do or how do we go about getting the info via the FOIA?

Or should the USOC be contacted and be made aware of what is happenening?

Brad, as a rd, how far do we take this? Do we keep piling on one tri in the Hudson River or do we ask for water quality numbers from you and every other tri held in the past three years? I have swum in some suspect subdivision lakes(ponds)in the past and, even, some suspect swimming pools.
Didn't most all of your participants believe you when you said you were putting on a safe du or tri?
Isn't one of the posts above that comments on bogus numbers the way most of the critics on this board would take anything that is said unless it's under oath?
How many rd's, that you know, do water quality tests on their own at their expense on the day of the race?
From your posts, you are very concientous about the safety of your races and I do not intend to put you personally on the spot but I would really like to know if those rd's in your circle did all of the things being asked of the NYCTri.

Bob Sigerson

I don't know how to go about forcing USAT or the RD to give out the info, but a FOIL request has been filed with the NYC DEP and I should be receiving information from the NYC public advocates office about exactly which agency is in charge of water testing and how to file a FOIL with them shortly.

According to the US DoJ Web site:

"The FOIA applies only to federal agencies and does not create a right of access to records held by Congress, the courts, or by state or local government agencies. Each state has its own public access laws that should be consulted for access to state and local records."

I'd guess that you'd have to go after USATriathlon via Colorado (where they are incorporated). Had NYC been granted the 2012 Olympics, the USOC *might* have been interested.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

New York and all municipalities follow the FOIL guidlines.



Bob Sigerson

Sig, Re: "Requiring all RD's to provide water safety information"

I can see that one "might" think that "if NYC Tri has to do it, we all will have to, and that is a pain" mentality of an RD. But I would offer these rebuttals:

1. Every USAT RD has to do - ALREADY DOES - it anyway (get local test documents and keep them) so it would not be asking anything extraordinary, other than perhaps responding, or posting some info on a web site.
2. The NYC Tri puts paying participants into a well-know high-risk and changeable environment. Its own swims had been cancelled 1/3 of the time in its history and other swims get cancelled there on a regular basis (approaching 50%). It is not held at a municipally-recognized "swimming area", as are 99.9% of all other tri swims (where the state or local Heatlh dept make daily calls on whether or not swimming is permissible.) Hence the NYC Tri is not like other events and SHOULD be more open and accountable.

If you are running a tri in a risky area, then you have to be more vigilant (just like having to post crossing guards on tris with lots of intersections) and probably more responsive to the public's "right to know".

Do you think RD's should/do act otherwise now?

And Brad, please tell me if the RD's in your circle did not follow USAT-mandated testing procedures and if they would have a problem giving ANY information to a competitor when asked, and if they would change their story several times and then clam up.

Actually yes, I had every water system that we used tested by either the Department of the Environment of Department of Natural Resources, especially something like Riverwatch with all the geese or Mason Dixon an enclosed lake. We cancelled the swim one year at Mason Dixon because of stagnant water and cancelled the swim one year at Spud which was a huge race because of suspect water quality taken the day before. I'd rather be yelled at then had people sick. I had all the paperwork available to anyone that wanted to see it and even had the people from DNR at the race site the day of the event in case anything changed. Did I post stuff around, no. Did I provide it if asked - yes. And I didn't even use USAT insurance that supposedly requires it.

If USAT is serious about what sanctioning means then they should require an affidavit or signed document stating that the water will be tested at these time intervals and all paperwork filed by a certain date or sanctioning denied the next year. You want safe races, you have to do the work. Hell with drafting, take care of the important things that could get triathlons shut down.

Did everything go perfectly at my races - no. Did I learn by mistakes - yes. Was I ever sued in 18 years - no. Am I still in a quandry about some things - yes. NYC Tri is a high profile race- all this stuff should have been covered. It a lapse in leadership at the upmost levels. What seems to me what is going on is that water testing was not done or came back bad. Can you think of any other reason why USAT is not releasing information?? If it is found that testing was not done or the testing was bad, heads should roll in Colorado Springs.

agree 100%...and thanks for taking care...caring for...of us athletes ;-) the rd for nyc tri isn't

 
Mike Plumb

Sep 1, 2005, 8:49 PM

Post #9 of 9 (7 views)
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Re: NYC Tri water quality [Slowman] - NEW [In reply to] Quote | Reply

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so one of the end results of your investigation was that the water quality of the Hudson was indeed up to standards as reported by the race committee. Maybe someone can do some investigative reporting on why this Hudson River controversy started and who really was at the root of it? Hint: it had nothing to do with water quality.

BTW, Ralph's was 16 weeks before NYC Tri, not 6 weeks as mentioned in your article.

Mike Plumb
TriPower MultiSports
Professional Running, Cycling and Multisport Coaching
http://www.tripower.org

“”Accordingly, rainy conditions prior to an event are most likely the culprit when a triathlon swim leg is cancelled, and this brings us back to the Hudson River. The section chief of the New York Department of Environmental Protection runs the Harbor Survey Program, and as such is responsible for testing at the New York City Triathlon venue. According to this agency's testing, following a rainy spell the fecal coliform count was over 300 cfu on the Monday prior to the New York event. This was clearly higher than the EPA guideline for this bacteriological criterion.

Normally, the testing would not be done again until the following Monday. However, at the request of the race organization follow-up testing was performed, and on Thursday prior to the Sunday race the Hudson River sample taken close to the race course had a reading of 197, a hair under the limit. As the Hudson flushes itself quickly in a current that can flow up to four knots, the trend line pointed to a relatively clean river for the Sunday race, barring further rain prior to the event.”



A couple research points were missed in a well written piece.



The current did not hit 4 knots prior to the event, there WAS significant rain prior to the event and a test 24 to 36 after the tri that was on Sunday morning can yield very different results (if the river takes 48 to 96 hours to flush).



So PLEASE go back to the section chief of the New York Department of Environmental Protection who runs the Harbor Survey Program and ask him/her to go on the record and advise how much rain on Friday or Saturday would have placed the water over the limit. And also what is his/her gut or what does the model say, if Friday’s rain actually put it over the limit into the unsafe zone.



Finally, it would be great to have the section chief comment on why beaches were closed in the area and was the Hudson the reason the Manhattan Marathon was cancelled the day before.



This would put this one to rest and let John Korff off the hook....



Thanks