What's your point?

I wouldn't start this thread now, especially not when the Portuguese-Army-of-Ullrich guys are here.

I would also like to add that the tour is a lot more competitive now, and there are almost no riders who ride at such a young age (I'm assuming he started when he was 20 or 21) nor at such an old age (isn't the oldest rider 37, then the next 34?).

Go Ullrich

The question is, what will Ullrich take away from this year's tour? Will he train like a maniac and try to beat Armstrong, or will he put on 15 kilos and drink beer all winter? The guy is a formidable talent, but too easily distracted from the task at hand. He needs a really mean coach. :)

Yeah Zoetemelk was a stud for sure.

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

Sorry, help me out. How are 7 tour stage victories, 5 2nd place finishes, and one overall tour win not stellar? You're right he really sucks.

People would kill for a career like that.

Ullrich doesn't stand up? Yeah, I guess I am at a loss for this one too, kind of like saying Lance Armstrong's rookie season sucked, or Andy Hampsten wasn't a good climber, or Cousin Ellwood doesn't get out much...

Does anyone remember Hinault and Zoetemelk (sp) breaking away from the field and duking it out on the Champs Elywhitneywhatever? 1-2 in the tour, going for it, mano y mano, 1-2 in the final stage. That was so cool...that did happen, right? It isn't a false memory from my troubled youth?

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"Maybe you should just run faster..." TM

In addition, Armstrong has publicly admitted that Ullrich kept him up at night with the performance he put forth in last years tour.

Armstrong hasn't said that about anyone else.

His point is not only is Joop a nasty smelling cheap perfume but a pretty damn good cyclist.

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customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

I just hope he comes back a little this week. I can see him retiring if he continues to get shelled - not from the tour, but from racing. He's talked about it before. That would be disappointing. You have to give him credit for not backing down on Fri and Sat. I was really disappointed in Leipheimer losing over six minutes on the final climb. Claims he ran out of food/gas - probably cost him lots of money for whoever he signs with next year. That third podium spot is there for the taking, and it certainly could have been his. No excuse for not having sufficient supplies but, then again, it wasn't me trying to hang on to the Postal death march.

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Jim Manton / ERO Sports

He contradicted himself. He said he didn't deserve to be mentioned so much, then posted a damn good resume of cycling finishes.

The guy needs a lesson in reading data then coming to a conclusion.

seriously--ullrich has a higher % of participation and stage victories(i.e. he's averaging a win per tour), and a better % of second place or higher results. and it's not like ullrich has too small of a statistical sample to draw conclusions.

yes, it's impressive the joop(not even going to attempt that last name) had such longevity coupled with success, but i don't think anyone could do that in the current cycling environment. the difference in conditioning between being on the podium in a grand tour and finishing outside the top 30 is pretty small.

the only thing i have issue with in regards to ullrich is the constant reference to him being the "most talented cyclist". he might have talent, but so does armstrong, cunego, basso, vinokourov, etc. etc. and those other riders have produced quality results as well...

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f/k/a mclamb6

the only thing i have issue with in regards to ullrich is the constant reference to him being the "most talented cyclist". he might have talent, but so does armstrong, cunego, basso, vinokourov, etc. etc. and those other riders have produced quality results as well...
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Cunego, Basso and Vino may amount to something someday but for now, they cannot hold Jan's jock in terms of either talent or results. Their total grand tour palmares is a tour white jersey, a tour podium finish and a giro win. Jan did more than that in one year and he has kicked an awful lot of ass since then. Jan definitely has some shortcomings but it took someone of Lance's caliber to expose them. If Lance is 1% less than the genetic freak he is, he is dead now or at the very least out of bike racing and Jan has won 4 (actually probably 6 tours because he likely wouldn't have missed two tours if he had been on top of the heap).

Even if one of the Cunego/Basso/Vino trio ends up finishing with a better resume than Jan, Basso is the only one who has any chance of saying what Jan already can: that he rode with the best grand tour rider of our time and pushed him to his absolute limit. Even Basso cannot say that yet.

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Anyone who tells you they're as fast now as they were when they were 18...
sure wasn't very fast when they were 18.

It's a very american attitude to consider anything but 1st place to be a failure. Europeans and Canadians view the world a bit differently.



Flame away...

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not to mention, an olympic gold, a vuelta...

darn, what a loser :-)

where can you sign to be a loser like Jan?

For info, Raymond Poulidor was racing at the same time as Jacques Anquetil at the start of his career, and with Merckx at the end...as a result he never won the tour, never wore the yellow jersey (I think) but has a fantastic palmares nonetheless, and he was adored by fans, more than Anquetil btw.

Also, if anyone else remembers the Tour that Jan rode in support of Bjarne Riis, it looked at the end that Jan could have easily taken the tour himself. He held back, in my opinion in the final time trial and following stages in order to let his captain win.

and noone said anything there...unlike the Hinault-Lemond thing...

Hey Francois

I think Poulidor DID wear the yellow jersey in the tour. He won on Ventoux, or Alpe du Huez or something like that. I think Thevenet ended up with it due to an unfortunate "bulb of the mechanic's urine in the pocket" incident. I think that is true, am I thinking of the right guy?

Bahomontes (sp)? Didn't he get 2nd something like 6 times? There are a few guys out there who have shown great promise, rode heroic races, and got 2nd, or 3rd. Steven Rooks, Gert Jan Thunawhatshisname, they come to mind.

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"Maybe you should just run faster..." TM

Bahamontes won in 59, took second in 62 and 3rd in 64.

He was leading one year and crashed. Merckx was supposed to get the yellow jersey after the crash but refused to ride with it to respect the fact that he didn't really get the jersey.

I checked on www.letour.fr and Poulidor never wore it. bummer.

My point, (and I think that the debate in this silly little topic bears this out), is that comparisons are silly. It's all futile and fun.



If Lance gets # 6, he'll arguably be the greatest TdF champion. Right now, at worst, he's tied with the others in the "5 wins" club. Out of riders with only 1 win, Ullrich is clearly gifted, but, in my mind, Zoetemelk has the more impressive TdF career. Zoetemelk's misfortune was to have a career that intersected with both Eddie Mercx (sp?) and Hinault. Ullrich has an Olympic medal. But, (correct me if I'm wrong), pro cyclists weren't Olympic eligible in the 70's and 80's.



Ullrich is a former TdF champion, and a potential threat in the GC. But this year methinks he is bluffing. For me to put him with the all time greats, he needs to deliver more than a threat, he needs to make good on a promise. I don't see that happening this year, and I don't expect to see him back in the TdF competing for the GC.



Paul

I think Ullrich is physically the most talented rider in the pro peleton IMHO and that of many other very other knowledgable people--I would argue that Lance probably agrees which is why I think he fear Jan so much. If Ullrich trained as hard and smart as Lance and paid as much attention to tactics (includes a good team and director) Jan would be unbeatable even with Lance at his best. However, as Lance and Hamilton and others have proven hard work is just as important. To be fair, no one really knows how Ullrich really trains in the off-season, but it is pretty easy to tell that he isn't careful about his weight which costs a lot of energy and recovery to lose before Le Tour. Furthermore, Lance makes a lot up over Jan by being tactically smarter. With that said Lance while having beaten Ullrich soundly probably couldn't beat Jan if Jan trained like Lance--with total focus and dedication. Ullrich is almost capable of beating Lance with poor training habits (a bit of an assumption)...what would Jan be like with Lance's trainnig habits, a good team, and good tactics: UNBEATABLE! I still think Lance is great though! Three cheers for hard work and dedication.

being able to focus the whole year, and work hard is part of talent. even though I agree with you, but really root for Jan, it's disappointing to see him not working hard enough and having to lose 12lbs one month before the tour...

I remember when Jan won in 97, Hinault said something about him winning 10 times, if he could get downhill better, and improved his work ethics...
bummer

I remember that one. Jan would have definitely won if he wasn't riding for Riis.

"Zoetemelk's misfortune was to have a career that intersected with both Eddie Mercx (sp?) and Hinault."

yeah...and Ullrich has had the "misfortune" to have a career that intersects with a guy who will win the tdf more than anybody else in the history of cycling.

Does that make him less of a cyclist?

ummm...no. That was in respons to paulm's reasoning for Goatmilk being better than Ullrich.

You don't become a pro athlete by sucking at your sport.