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USAT Wetsuit Rules
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I think neoprene shorts and especially pants could have a very positive place in triathlon. The current USAT cut off is at or above 78d. At that level it allows an athlete the choice of what type of neoprene they want to wear. Full, farmer John, pants, or even just shorts. The category is too broad because all of these listed have different purposes. Foremost to me is that there is a real safety issue when people choose a full suit at high, but legal tempatures. Often times this is because the full suit is the only one they own or brought to the race. A wetsuit that works at 60d is not a suit you should wear at 76d (WTC) or 78d (USAT). It makes most people way too hot for racing.

I have suggested to USAT that their guidelines should reflect this. Full suits at 76 or below. Sleeveless (farmer John) at 78 and below and then pants or shorts at any temperature. This would be a step to help support new/inexperienced or challenged swimmers in open water and make the swim safer (yes, and faster) for most everyone. This also would clarify the issue when athletes wear wetsuits above 78d but below 84d and are not eligible for awards. I have given pre-race talks on many occasions that I will use the 78d rule and then have a number of people say they can wear them. They are actually correct, but when they don't have their name appear in the results until the bottom because they are not listed in the categories, it is a problem.

I have seriously been involved in the sport for over thirty years and have seen/used most tech changes that have taken place. For the most part, they have been made to make people faster, more comfortable and safer.

So do swim shorts and pants provide an unfair tech advantage? In my opinion, yes but no different than bike frames/wheels, shoes and clothing (including swim skins).

In a sport that most people agreeably don't swim well, my suggestion does not help me against my competition, but would be a positive for triathlon as a whole (and business too). One more piece of equipment to buy. So yes, when I go to a triathlon, I need to pack my full suit, sleeveless suit, pants, shorts and swim skin just to be covered. It's a far cry from my first triathlon in 1986 when I did the whole race in running shorts.

Doug Marocco USAT #1039 I have been doing this sport for a while!
Last edited by: PT More: Mar 2, 19 7:11
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Re: USAT Wetsuit Rules [PT More] [ In reply to ]
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The last thing this sport needs is one more needlessly complicated rule.
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Re: USAT Wetsuit Rules [g_lev] [ In reply to ]
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I can’t disagree that there are many rules to follow. “Needlessly” is not true in my opinion. The need is first for safety reasons with the many east coast races that boarder at the 78d level and so many “non swimmers” wearing full suits because they think more rubber is better. Additionally, the 78d - 84d current rule needs to be addressed. Either it’s no rubber above 78d period. If encouragement and confidence wants to be offered above that temperature than it should be open to all competitors and they should be award eligible should be below the waist. Shorts or pants at any temperature.

Doug Marocco USAT #1039 I have been doing this sport for a while!
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Re: USAT Wetsuit Rules [PT More] [ In reply to ]
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Your two posts here make no sense at all, and you are arguing both sides of the safety argument, so pick a side and at least stick to it.

We have what you can wear in swimming for reasons that accommodate the most people, and make the races fair for most. There are a lot of older people where 80+ degree water is still very cold to them, so they get to choose to wear a wetsuit or not. We already have drifted away from FINA rules in that we allow swim skins in non wetsuit swims, which is about the same advantage as wetsuit pants or wetsuit jammers.

You seem to want to do away with all the current rules because it is not safe, then put in a whole new set, which is also not safe for many. The way the rules are now, folks that need a wetsuit to feel safe(or be safe) get to choose at any temp, but forgo awards at some point in that choice. Isn't that the safest for the most people, to have a choice? Your line would get rid of that choice, and no one is forced to wear a full suit at any time, so that is a red herring argument from the get go. You can wear your jammer or long pants wetties anytime that wetsuits are allowed, so knock yourself out...
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Re: USAT Wetsuit Rules [PT More] [ In reply to ]
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My worthless two sense, on my 11th season, is that we concentrate too much on equipment. Now we’re talking about having like 9 different wetsuits for a race? On top of a racing helmet, training helmet, aero suits, tri shoes, road shoes, run shoes... This is a sport. Sports are hard. Sometimes its too hot sometimes its too cold, sometimes it rains, sometimes its perfect out. At the current rules if you want to wear a full suit in that “border” zone go ahead. We all understand the risk.

I still lapped everyone on the couch!
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Re: USAT Wetsuit Rules [PT More] [ In reply to ]
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USAT is slowly becoming less relevant to age group athletes. In a few more years their rule book will need to follow WTC's not the other way around.


I mean they can't even figure out how to solve age group doping or drafting and let races notorious for huge packs get sanctioned year after year.

If WTC didn't sanction their races & require a USAT card my guess is membership drops by >50% in the first year.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: USAT Wetsuit Rules [PT More] [ In reply to ]
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Seems USAT has competing goals and since they cant pick one has overriding we have the current mess.

On 1 hand we have swimmer safety from overheating (78 degree rule)

On the other hand we have the desire to be as welcoming and inclusive for all skill levels (84 degree rule).

I would probably generally agree that if you feel you absolutely must have your wetsuit to complete the swim then you probably aren't competitive, so sure slap on your wetsuit and float away behind everyone else. But, I cant for the life of me get past the question of if you HAVE to have your wetsuit do you really belong out there in the first place?
Last edited by: Fasterthanslow: Mar 2, 19 17:13
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Re: USAT Wetsuit Rules [Fasterthanslow] [ In reply to ]
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I’m 62 years old, 5’9” and weigh 133 lbs. I’m generally cold. 77-degree water is tough for me to swim in. The heat just gets sucked out of my body. I’m also a AOS of 4 years. My 2-mile pool time is 1:13. That would leave me in the water around 1:40 for a 2.4. Maybe I wouldn’t have problem with hypothermia, or maybe I just don’t “belong there in the first place”.
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Re: USAT Wetsuit Rules [alfaholic] [ In reply to ]
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Wouldn't a swim skin solve your problem if you are a capable swimmer but 79 degrees would be a no wetsuit race
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Re: USAT Wetsuit Rules [Fasterthanslow] [ In reply to ]
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I wear a swimskin every swim and the pool is normally 82-84 degrees. I'd likely be okay, just uncomfortably cold and underperform accordingly. .
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Re: USAT Wetsuit Rules [PT More] [ In reply to ]
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My posing of this question was not based on my swim inadequacy but more on what I have observed through the sport over many years. Just a few degrees can make a difference between someone being too hot or too cold so as Monty has suggested, let the athlete choose what they want to wear. Maybe that’s the way to go, wear whatever you want and have no rule regarding swim apparel.

Anyone that knows me would agree that swimming is not my problem as I have gone under under 1 hour in all 16 of my IM’s including 9x Kona with no wetsuit or swim-skin. I just thought it was a topic that had issues, but apparently not. Thanks for the feedback.

Doug Marocco USAT #1039 I have been doing this sport for a while!
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Re: USAT Wetsuit Rules [PT More] [ In reply to ]
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De Soto has made wetsuit pants for years. It’s all I wore in the summer in the Midwest. I don’t see any reason to regulate it though. It only takes one race ina full suit at 78 degrees to realize it sucks if it’s too hot.
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Re: USAT Wetsuit Rules [PT More] [ In reply to ]
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I've been to a few races where they were debating the temp before the start of the race, to determine if it was wet suit legal. Heck, I want to do a pre-swim, and get set for the race. Should be no doubts or confusion and certainly not something like a specific type of suit for a certain temp limit, that would be another headache for a race director or crew.
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Re: USAT Wetsuit Rules [vonschnapps] [ In reply to ]
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I’d like the rule to be, you can wear a wetsuit at any temperature. You decide. The only thing is, you can’t put it on until the gun goes off!

Proud member of FISHTWITCH: doing a bit more than fish exercise now.
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Re: USAT Wetsuit Rules [PT More] [ In reply to ]
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I think the rules are fine as they are. There are tons of options but consumers/customers/racers need to educate themselves on what choices are best for them. One size does not fit all IMO with suits in many ways, temperature included. I don't think the creating temp ranges and required suit types would be a positive move when weighing the pros and cons.

I'm personally a fan of the WTC/ITU lower temps for wetsuits.. that's just me though.
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Re: USAT Wetsuit Rules [alfaholic] [ In reply to ]
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I agree completely. Basically the exact same height and weight and I don't care what people say...my local pool keeps it at 78 degrees and my lips are freakin blue after a workout. I've NEVER felt like I was overheating in a wettie. I'll swim in the gulf when it's 82 degress with one cause I'm just cold.
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Re: USAT Wetsuit Rules [PT More] [ In reply to ]
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Being in Canada, I rarely race USAT races, and we follow the ITU rules in terms of wetsuits up here... In general, the rules are already complicated enough, and officials end up having to explain the exiting rules frequently at races to being with, complicating them serves nobody... The growing problem that governing bodies have is finding a way to continue to grow the sport as it had flattened out quite a bit... the biggest obstacle they are facing is cost, it's very much seen as an upper middle class sport because of all the equipment one "needs". Most of the marketing for newbies these days are focused on racing with what you have, or borrow what you need... so changing a rule to potentially push people into getting more equipment seems to send a contrary message...

For the longest time our rules outright banned wetsuit bottoms (except for para athletes) regardless of temperature.. it was only in the last few years that it was amended to only banning them when wetsuits were prohibited... I get that their advantage is not that much beyond swimskins, but essentially it becomes an arms race for all of the weaker swimmers to have the most amount of neoprene legal based on conditions if you start to tier the wetsuit rules... There are temps where wetsuits are banned, if you choose to wear a full or partial suit beyond that temperature, then you have to withdraw yourself from the results... Within the wetsuit optional range, I have no problem wit people evaluating the conditions for themselves, and deciding whether they might want to opt sleeveless, or just bottoms/shorts if they have that option, and feel so inclined... The shorts only always worry me for people wearing two pieces for accidental nudity penalties trying to get them off and accidentally grabbing your tri shorts too...
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Re: USAT Wetsuit Rules [PT More] [ In reply to ]
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My opinion on wetsuit rules is that an arbitrary X degrees means yes/no doesn't take into account enough factors. There's a lot at stake during the swim, the athlete should be comfortable first and foremost - a warm body is less likely to get sick or injured later on in the race than someone all tightened up and lips chattering. Then factor in the outdoor temperature, if it's a 50 degree day and the water is 78, do you really think going no wetsuit is appropriate? Or is it just what you've signed up for? Similarly, if the gun goes off and the water is 77 and the air is 90, do you really need a wetsuit? Is there a danger of overheating?

I don't like the "welcoming/safety" angle. Learn how to swim and be prepared for if a race is wetsuit legal or not. It shouldn't be a crutch. I know RD's that blatantly disregard water temps because they don't want the new triathletes to be turned off by no-wetsuit swims. Then you have everyone wearing a wetsuit in 81 degree water, rules be damned. I also don't care for the ... well you can wear one but not eligible for awards. Just say, yeah this race is wetsuit legal, or no it's not.

I would like to see a water/air temperature matrix devised by medical professionals, not USAT/WTC/ITU board members, and the entries are W [wetsuit] or N [no], you measure the temps, look up on the chart, and go with it. I think it adds a needed dimension to the determination, and unifies the decision across the governing bodies and the competitors.

ETA: and no, I would no be in favor of complicating the rule by describing type of wetsuit allowed. Total overkill.
Last edited by: ripple: Mar 4, 19 9:44
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Re: USAT Wetsuit Rules [ripple] [ In reply to ]
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I would like to see a water/air temperature matrix devised by medical professionals, not USAT/WTC/ITU board members, and the entries are W [wetsuit] or N [no], you measure the temps, look up on the chart, and go with it.

------

I'm pretty sure the water/air conversion that ITU uses wasn't just made from board members picking random temps. I'm almost certain it was from research and medical advice. Or shall I say I highly doubt the medical professions numbers would differ from the current ITU water/air tables.





Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: USAT Wetsuit Rules [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
I would like to see a water/air temperature matrix devised by medical professionals, not USAT/WTC/ITU board members, and the entries are W [wetsuit] or N [no], you measure the temps, look up on the chart, and go with it.

------

I'm pretty sure the water/air conversion that ITU uses wasn't just made from board members picking random temps. I'm almost certain it was from research and medical advice. Or shall I say I highly doubt the medical professions numbers would differ from the current ITU water/air tables.



And that's probably the case, but my general idea is that just make sure a competent group of people do it, and I think air/water temps need to be considered as a unit, not just water temp.
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Re: USAT Wetsuit Rules [alfaholic] [ In reply to ]
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I wear a swimskin every swim and the pool is normally 82-84 degrees.

That's probably another reason why 77 F is difficult for you to swim in.
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Re: USAT Wetsuit Rules [ripple] [ In reply to ]
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In ITU races the air + water is built into the wetsuit decision.

ETA: There have been times where water has been above threshold but the air temp is "cold" at X temp and thus wetsuits were allowed even though it's above the water temp threshold.

ITU's temp standards go as far as detailing each race distance, etc. So it's not just board members throwing up random numbers on a chart and putting it in the rules.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Mar 4, 19 9:55
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Re: USAT Wetsuit Rules [ripple] [ In reply to ]
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ripple wrote:
My opinion on wetsuit rules is that an arbitrary X degrees means yes/no doesn't take into account enough factors. There's a lot at stake during the swim, the athlete should be comfortable first and foremost - a warm body is less likely to get sick or injured later on in the race than someone all tightened up and lips chattering. Then factor in the outdoor temperature, if it's a 50 degree day and the water is 78, do you really think going no wetsuit is appropriate? Or is it just what you've signed up for? Similarly, if the gun goes off and the water is 77 and the air is 90, do you really need a wetsuit? Is there a danger of overheating?

I don't like the "welcoming/safety" angle. Learn how to swim and be prepared for if a race is wetsuit legal or not. It shouldn't be a crutch. I know RD's that blatantly disregard water temps because they don't want the new triathletes to be turned off by no-wetsuit swims. Then you have everyone wearing a wetsuit in 81 degree water, rules be damned. I also don't care for the ... well you can wear one but not eligible for awards. Just say, yeah this race is wetsuit legal, or no it's not.

I would like to see a water/air temperature matrix devised by medical professionals, not USAT/WTC/ITU board members, and the entries are W [wetsuit] or N [no], you measure the temps, look up on the chart, and go with it. I think it adds a needed dimension to the determination, and unifies the decision across the governing bodies and the competitors.

ETA: and no, I would no be in favor of complicating the rule by describing type of wetsuit allowed. Total overkill.

Not sure for USAT, but the air temp/water temp matrix has existed for at least 6 years in the ITU rulebook, and has been adjusted a couple of times in the last couple of years, because on advice from the ITU's medical delegates...
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Re: USAT Wetsuit Rules [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
In ITU races the air + water is built into the wetsuit decision.

ETA: There have been times where water has been above threshold but the air temp is "cold" at X temp and thus wetsuits were allowed even though it's above the water temp threshold.

ITU's temp standards go as far as detailing each race distance, etc. So it's not just board members throwing up random numbers on a chart and putting it in the rules.



Trauma wrote:
Not sure for USAT, but the air temp/water temp matrix has existed for at least 6 years in the ITU rulebook, and has been adjusted a couple of times in the last couple of years, because on advice from the ITU's medical delegates...



Nice. I was not familiar (obviously) with ITU standards. So why can't USAT do that?
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Re: USAT Wetsuit Rules [ripple] [ In reply to ]
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Cus that's a far more complicated step(s) for a RD than a simple X threshold temp. Would mean the RD would have to know the chart or have the chart and know both temps.

I'm not saying they shouldn't have it added, I'm just saying that many/most/all ITU races have actual "officials" there.....many USAT races the "official" can at times just be the RD. *maybe* they have an official and maybe they dont.


But it is a much better/safer/scientific approach for sure. It just imo is more "complicated" process.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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