Re: U.S. Triathlon Athlete Lisa Roberts Accepts Public Warning for Anti-Doping Rule Violation [Tulkas] [ In reply to ]

Nov 12, 17 20:54

Post #26 of 94 (7566 views)

The Code is not American. It's a world body, with no direct ties to U.S. criminal justice. (though both arguably have shared roots)

Also if USADA used mistakes by their own personnel as a mitigating circumstance, then they should state that explicitly. Transparency is a key attribute of trust In a governing body. We shouldn't have to ourselves parse possible mitigating circumstances out of blog entries of the sanctioned party or our own estimates of how relatively innocuous the substance seems.

Re: U.S. Triathlon Athlete Lisa Roberts Accepts Public Warning for Anti-Doping Rule Violation [trail] [ In reply to ]

Nov 12, 17 20:55

Post #27 of 94 (7566 views)

I still find it odd that a woman in her late 30's finally realizes she has exercise induced asthma and needs this specific inhaler. In fact, her husband raved to my husband at the Panama 70.3 in 2016 while we were racing, that her running performance had improved substantial amounts since she started her new inhaler ... seems too fishy for me.

�To give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift.� � Steve Prefontaine | http://www.kirstyjahntriathlon.com | twitter: @kirstyjahntri

Re: U.S. Triathlon Athlete Lisa Roberts Accepts Public Warning for Anti-Doping Rule Violation [trail] [ In reply to ]

Nov 12, 17 21:11

Post #28 of 94 (7560 views)

I fully agree that USADA should give an explanation of why this is a warning and not a suspension. And I certainly wouldn't bet a single dollar on the truthfulness of an athlete facing a doing sanction, people in that position historically have a terrible track record! But you have to admit the unusual (as far as I know) public warning vs a suspension lends credibility to the athlete's claim that there may be extenuating circumstances here which normally don't factor into the decision.

To your first point, it is a WADA code but USADA is making the call, I think they will tend towards the reasonableness standard. I don't know much about the civil and criminal Justice systems in the rest of the world, but I would imagine/hope that most other developed countries have also adopted the reasonableness standard.

And to the OP, it does seem weird to me too that someone would suddenly come down with asthma at 30. Is there any research as to the frequency of adult-onset asthma? Also could it be that most adults who may have it don't actually ever diagnose it because they assume it's normal, and only athletes who push their bodies to the limit will realise there is something wrong? It certainly wouldn't be surprising that someone who had suffered from a respiratory disorder would sudden!y improve when the disorder is corrected.

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Re: U.S. Triathlon Athlete Lisa Roberts Accepts Public Warning for Anti-Doping Rule Violation [Tulkas] [ In reply to ]

Nov 12, 17 21:30

Post #29 of 94 (7549 views)

Tulkas wrote:

I fully agree that USADA should give an explanation of why this is a warning and not a suspension. And I certainly wouldn't bet a single dollar on the truthfulness of an athlete facing a doing sanction, people in that position historically have a terrible track record! But you have to admit the unusual (as far as I know) public warning vs a suspension lends credibility to the athlete's claim that there may be extenuating circumstances here which normally don't factor into the decision.

To your first point, it is a WADA code but USADA is making the call, I think they will tend towards the reasonableness standard. I don't know much about the civil and criminal Justice systems in the rest of the world, but I would imagine/hope that most other developed countries have also adopted the reasonableness standard.

And to the OP, it does seem weird to me too that someone would suddenly come down with asthma at 30. Is there any research as to the frequency of adult-onset asthma? Also could it be that most adults who may have it don't actually ever diagnose it because they assume it's normal, and only athletes who push their bodies to the limit will realise there is something wrong? It certainly wouldn't be surprising that someone who had suffered from a respiratory disorder would sudden!y improve when the disorder is corrected.

It depends where you draw the line for 'disorder".

My own experiment:
In Spring I get exercise-induced 'respiratory restriction' due to mild seasonal allergies. I do not consider that to be Asthma, but it restricts my maximal breathing depth.
I do not use an inhaler for that as it really is not impacting my daily life.

Out of curiosity, I borrowed a TUE-exempt asthma inhaler from a friend of mine.
My maximal breathing depth was significantly improved and hence also my performance (admittedly totally subjective, and don't get me started on placebo-effects).

Do I 'suffer' from Asthma and have a 'disorder'?

I know this is leading off topic, but at the top level, where 1-5% higher VO2max makes all the difference, the border between 'disorder' and 'performance enhancer' is racer sharp.
In this case, she was aware that she was switching medications, and should have followed up. Especially with the apparent 'improvement'.

Last edited by: windschatten: Nov 12, 17 21:34

Re: U.S. Triathlon Athlete Lisa Roberts Accepts Public Warning for Anti-Doping Rule Violation [KirstyJahn] [ In reply to ]

Nov 12, 17 22:15

Post #30 of 94 (7529 views)

I still find it odd that a woman in her late 30's finally realizes she has exercise induced asthma and needs this specific inhaler.

There are way too many "I had no idea" excuses coming out of sports. This has been going on for decades and always a variation on the "my case is special" so I should get a pass.

I'm with you, there is something very fishy here. If USADA and any other organization wants to be taken seriously, they have to start abiding by their own rules without exceptions.

Re: U.S. Triathlon Athlete Lisa Roberts Accepts Public Warning for Anti-Doping Rule Violation [windschatten] [ In reply to ]

Nov 12, 17 22:38

Post #31 of 94 (7519 views)

Honestly, yes you do suffer from asthma, allergy induced asthema specifically. Lots of people do. That's why the TUE system exists. Not arguing anything about the legality of this case, but the fact that you're casting aspersions on anyone using an inhalor for such things is just rediculous.

I'd say the border between performance enhancer and medical treatment is pretty clear. Do allergies/exercise/etc cause a respiratory reaction that limits breathing? Disorder. Otherwise, not. It's an actual, quantifiable thing.

Re: U.S. Triathlon Athlete Lisa Roberts Accepts Public Warning for Anti-Doping Rule Violation [windschatten] [ In reply to ]

Nov 13, 17 1:45

Post #32 of 94 (7477 views)

windschatten wrote:

My own experiment:
In Spring I get exercise-induced 'respiratory restriction' due to mild seasonal allergies. I do not consider that to be Asthma, but it restricts my maximal breathing depth.
I do not use an inhaler for that as it really is not impacting my daily life.

Out of curiosity, I borrowed a TUE-exempt asthma inhaler from a friend of mine.
My maximal breathing depth was significantly improved and hence also my performance (admittedly totally subjective, and don't get me started on placebo-effects).

Do I 'suffer' from Asthma and have a 'disorder'?

I know this is leading off topic, but at the top level, where 1-5% higher VO2max makes all the difference, the border between 'disorder' and 'performance enhancer' is racer sharp.
In this case, she was aware that she was switching medications, and should have followed up. Especially with the apparent 'improvement'.

I don't believe that breathing depth - in normal, non-asthmatic people - is a limiter for aerobic performance. At all. Otherwise we would all be running around with those stupid gimp masks on like Leanda.

Slowman wrote:

about this particular issue, correct me if i'm wrong, this is a beta-2-agonist that is available for use with a TUE? the only beta-2-agonist i can think of that has been used with any regularity by cheaters is clenbuterol, which is what you give a horse with breathing issues, and which has some (questionable) anabolic properties.

again, i'm guessing, but the threshold amounts attached to allowable drugs like salmeterol, salbutamol, albuterol are simply to keep athletes from the oral use of these drugs (i don't suspect you could hit a threshold through inhaled use only).

I don't think many people have a sense of the high doses of these drugs (above the non-TUE thresholds) that have ever been associated with performance improvement in studies. It is literally a fuck-tonne. If you've ever had to suck on a dozen puffs of Salbutamol to stop your lips turning blue (like I have) you will understand how amusing the idea is of using an inhaled beta-agonist to improve performance... I'd be that dizzy and nauseated that I would struggle to find the damn bike, let alone clip in to the pedals and ride the thing quickly!

Last edited by: knighty76: Nov 13, 17 1:47

Re: U.S. Triathlon Athlete Lisa Roberts Accepts Public Warning for Anti-Doping Rule Violation [Pat0] [ In reply to ]

Nov 13, 17 4:45

Post #33 of 94 (7441 views)

Pat0 wrote:

KirstyJahn wrote:

I’m upset that she only was disqualified from Roth. The public warning as a penalty doesn’t make logical sense. She took a banned substance without a TUE. That is doping. It shouldn’t matter if she later received a TUE. IMO, she should’ve received a more severe penalty, such as a two year ban.

I hate dopers/cheaters in any form but I don't really understand all the indignation directed at this pro. From what I understand she has asthma, she used a certain brand of medication and asked twice if she needed an exemption. They told her not needed. Twice. Then her doctor changed the brand of the same medication and she didn't ask for third time (her bad she made an assumption). But she just changed the brand-like changing from Jiff to Skippy peanut butter.
The question I ask is did this person seek to gain and advantage? I think not. I just can't work up the anger at cases like this as I do with a Julie Miller et all athlete.

Thank you for a totally rational response.

Like the rest, I despise dopers.

This woman is not a doper.

----------------------------
Jason
None of the secrets of success will work unless you do.

Re: U.S. Triathlon Athlete Lisa Roberts Accepts Public Warning for Anti-Doping Rule Violation [KirstyJahn] [ In reply to ]

Nov 13, 17 6:56

Post #34 of 94 (7376 views)

Someone with a history of asthma are likely to get a new inhaler because
1. Suddenly uncontrolled symptoms of asthma starts happening more often throughout the week
2. Her insurance suddenly stopped paying for her old inhaler so she has to adopt this new one

Re: U.S. Triathlon Athlete Lisa Roberts Accepts Public Warning for Anti-Doping Rule Violation [KirstyJahn] [ In reply to ]

Nov 13, 17 7:14

Post #35 of 94 (7358 views)

The particularly frustrating thing for me is that I just checked Breo Ellipta on globaldro.com and, in less than 30 seconds, discovered it’s banned both in an out of competition. The first step isn’t applying for a TUE- it’s checking to see if the thing you are putting in your body is banned or not. Something I do with every single medication I am prescribed. It’s an incredibly simple process that eliminates any of the “I didn’t think I needed a TUE” excuses.

Re: U.S. Triathlon Athlete Lisa Roberts Accepts Public Warning for Anti-Doping Rule Violation [Tulkas] [ In reply to ]

Nov 13, 17 7:27

Post #36 of 94 (7346 views)

You can't just impart some made up "reasonableness" standard that doesn't exist in the code.

There are lots of strict liability offences in American law: no matter how "reasonable" one's act may have been, one still ends up guilty in those cases.

Your argument has an appeal to emotion, but is not correct.

Re: U.S. Triathlon Athlete Lisa Roberts Accepts Public Warning for Anti-Doping Rule Violation [KirstyJahn] [ In reply to ]

Nov 13, 17 7:35

Post #37 of 94 (7335 views)

It is not uncommon for asthmatics to change meds trying best to dial in what keeps your symptoms at bay. Ideally you never need to take your rescue inhaler. It has taken me 25 years to find the mix that works best for me.

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Re: U.S. Triathlon Athlete Lisa Roberts Accepts Public Warning for Anti-Doping Rule Violation [KirstyJahn] [ In reply to ]

Nov 13, 17 7:35

Post #38 of 94 (7333 views)

KirstyJahn wrote:

I still find it odd that a woman in her late 30's finally realizes she has exercise induced asthma and needs this specific inhaler. In fact, her husband raved to my husband at the Panama 70.3 in 2016 while we were racing, that her running performance had improved substantial amounts since she started her new inhaler ... seems too fishy for me.

You might want to add that if she were to be DQ'd from that 70.3 Panama race, as you expressed an interest in an earlier post, that you would have moved up from 4th to 3rd. Transparency is important...not just in doping controls.

Re: U.S. Triathlon Athlete Lisa Roberts Accepts Public Warning for Anti-Doping Rule Violation [Twotter] [ In reply to ]

Nov 13, 17 8:01

Post #39 of 94 (7301 views)

Honestly, does that really matter? People are attacking a poster, who rightfully has a legitimate interest in the validity of the ruling, more than the athlete that violated the rules??

If it were money taken out of my pockets, I’d be upset too. I’d say transparency in doping controls is more important.

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Re: U.S. Triathlon Athlete Lisa Roberts Accepts Public Warning for Anti-Doping Rule Violation [Twotter] [ In reply to ]

Nov 13, 17 8:17

Post #40 of 94 (7274 views)

I couldn’t care a less about a race almost two years ago. My main reason for posting originally, is because I’m all for clean sport and fairness in penalties. Perhaps, she truly does have exercise induced asthma and needs this inhaler. It still doesn’t change the fact she took a banned substance without a TUE. As professional athlete, I take extra care to make sure even my my multivitamin and fish oil supplement come from an “NSF” lab. Global DRO is extremely easy to use, and if I ever have to take a medication the first thing I do is check while in the doctor ‘s office before I’m prescribed anything that it is not banned. Not checking a new medication even if it is apparently only a different brand is simply being careless.

�To give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift.� � Steve Prefontaine | http://www.kirstyjahntriathlon.com | twitter: @kirstyjahntri

Re: U.S. Triathlon Athlete Lisa Roberts Accepts Public Warning for Anti-Doping Rule Violation [Tulkas] [ In reply to ]

Nov 13, 17 8:33

Post #41 of 94 (7257 views)

Tulkas wrote:

trail wrote:

Slowman wrote:

in other words, there's a big difference between arguing "but my doctor prescribed it" in this case versus in a testosterone case.

Where the words, though? Read pages 61-63 of the The Code. The way I read it is cheaters get 4 years. People who didn't intentionally cheat can get 2 years. People who show "No Fault or Negligence" can get less than two years. Did Lisa show "no fault or negligence?" I have a real hard time coming to that conclusion. I could see that with forum member MTM, who plausibly took a contaminated supplement. I don't see that here. Failing to check the DRO for a new prescription drug? That's a form of negligence for a professional athlete. It just is.

Your argument is based on your subjective interpretation of the relative effectiveness of Prohibited Substances. The Code attempts no such interpretation. There are Prohibited Substances. And that's it. There's a very good reason for this. Because it's just impossible in reality to do all the testing to determine which substances are truly effective and which aren't. Particularly since many aren't legally (FDA, etc) approved for any human consumption.

So a bunch of unnamed NADA personnel making this decision seems to be a bit cowboyish to me. Not corrupt or incompetent. Just cowboyish. I completely understand your rationale. If your argument were to add a section for light sentences somewhere in between "no fault or negligence" and the two years for "unintentional doping" then I could support that. But you've described yourself as a "process guy" in the past, and I'm not seeing the process here.

Now, admittedly, I could be wrong. I got "inhaled" vs "oral" wrong above. But that's just the way I read it.

In America our Justice system is based on one critical element: reasonableness. Would a reasonable person in the same situation do the same thing. I think if this athlete's story is true and she was told twice by USADA that she did that need a TUE for the type of inhaler she got, a reasonable person probably wouldn't call a third time. Now, if she's being interpretive with her memory and she was actually just told that she didn't need a TUE for that specific drug (as opposed to not needing one for that type of drug), then the situation probably does change to negligence.

Wow. A non-lawyer pretending to be a lawyer who has absolutely no idea what he/she is talking about. How about you do everyone on here a favor and talk to someone who actually knows something about the American legal system before you feel the urge to spout off a bunch of tripe. There are many laws that are entirely UNREASONABLE. Regardless, there USADA isn't a US court of law. It's an entity created to enforce non-law rules in sports and has its own set of standards that have nothing to do with the legal system.

Re: U.S. Triathlon Athlete Lisa Roberts Accepts Public Warning for Anti-Doping Rule Violation [MTBSully] [ In reply to ]

Nov 13, 17 8:44

Post #42 of 94 (7241 views)

MTBSully wrote:

It is not uncommon for asthmatics to change meds trying best to dial in what keeps your symptoms at bay. Ideally you never need to take your rescue inhaler. It has taken me 25 years to find the mix that works best for me.

Are you a professional athlete?

Her post doesn't make any sense. She first says that she was diagnosed with asthma in her 30s (in and of itself very sketchy) and then started with x brand of inhaler (OK...). Apparently that brand inhaler wasn't working well so she switched to a different brand with the hope of it better addressing her "asthma." She obviously thought the new inhaler was different from the first one (otherwise why switch?) so it defies logic that she just assumed there was no reason to get a TUE for the new -- and clearly different -- inhaler. She loses more credibility by trying to make it sound like receiving a TUE AFTER getting busted somehow washes away the fact that she was taking a banned substance with NO TUE.

She's a pro, she knows the rules and she should be suspended.

Re: U.S. Triathlon Athlete Lisa Roberts Accepts Public Warning for Anti-Doping Rule Violation [mag900] [ In reply to ]

Nov 13, 17 8:50

Post #43 of 94 (7234 views)

mag900 wrote:

MTBSully wrote:

It is not uncommon for asthmatics to change meds trying best to dial in what keeps your symptoms at bay. Ideally you never need to take your rescue inhaler. It has taken me 25 years to find the mix that works best for me.

Are you a professional athlete?

Her post doesn't make any sense. She first says that she was diagnosed with asthma in her 30s (in and of itself very sketchy) and then started with x brand of inhaler (OK...). Apparently that brand inhaler wasn't working well so she switched to a different brand with the hope of it better addressing her "asthma." She obviously thought the new inhaler was different from the first one (otherwise why switch?) so it defies logic that she just assumed there was no reason to get a TUE for the new -- and clearly different -- inhaler. She loses more credibility by trying to make it sound like receiving a TUE AFTER getting busted somehow washes away the fact that she was taking a banned substance with NO TUE.

She's a pro, she knows the rules and she should be suspended.

Agreed, 100%.

Re: U.S. Triathlon Athlete Lisa Roberts Accepts Public Warning for Anti-Doping Rule Violation [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]

Nov 13, 17 9:10

Post #44 of 94 (7209 views)

SnappingT wrote:

Here’s the other side of this story:

http://www.lisajroberts.com/blog/personal-statement

from there,
"I assumed the prescription for this similar type, but different brand inhaler was still under the USADA threshold limits and did not contain substances that required a TUE."

Assumed ? not a good plan.

Agree with slowman on the general outline though.
I wrote about TUEs and asthma based on my experience and research..

Re: U.S. Triathlon Athlete Lisa Roberts Accepts Public Warning for Anti-Doping Rule Violation [trail] [ In reply to ]

Nov 13, 17 9:44

Post #45 of 94 (7164 views)

trail wrote:

Veering from fact to opinion, I really don't understand the velvet glove "public warning.". She's a pro.

I'm going to use this as my opinion also, and explain it a bit.

Not everyone is born without health issues, fine. But at the same time, elite endurance athletics is a very specific discipline with very specific rules. I don't like the idea of TUE's, but it exists. If you want to use something for a real condition, you ask. Sure, you may be denied. But unfortunately, you don't really own your body. Your sponsor/team/country own it. That's a crappy view point, but the performance and legality of that body is essentially the monetary contract almost like my capacity to ethically do my job as an engineer.

In that sense, the penalties are way way too light. I mean, for pete's sake, sure the guy died but there's a statue on Ventoux of Tom Simpson who died a known doper during a competition in which he was doping.

More multi year bans and lifetime bans are needed.

I dare say for motor-doping on bikes.......immediate lifetime ban. Coordinated ban across all endurance cycling disciplines.......UCI, triathlon, off road......all of it.

Re: U.S. Triathlon Athlete Lisa Roberts Accepts Public Warning for Anti-Doping Rule Violation [TriBy3] [ In reply to ]

Nov 13, 17 9:44

Post #46 of 94 (7163 views)

TriBy3 wrote:

The particularly frustrating thing for me is that I just checked Breo Ellipta on globaldro.com and, in less than 30 seconds, discovered it’s banned both in an out of competition. The first step isn’t applying for a TUE- it’s checking to see if the thing you are putting in your body is banned or not. Something I do with every single medication I am prescribed. It’s an incredibly simple process that eliminates any of the “I didn’t think I needed a TUE” excuses.

Yes yes yes.

I'm not sympathetic here.

I was on Dulera a few years back (totally fine in the amounts I use it).

Dulera stopped working well for me, so I went back to my doctor. He prescribed Breo.

I went home, pulled up Global DRO just to be on the safe side, and....

whadya know - it's banned. But Advair is legal (in the amounts I use it)

Went back to doctor, got a script for Advair instead.

She has no excuse for not acting as I did. If I could figure out that a change in medications meant I had to recheck, then she should have known as well.

I believe there was a sprinter several years back who was in a similar situation. She received a harsher penalty for using Breo. http://mcthrows.com/?p=1511

Re: U.S. Triathlon Athlete Lisa Roberts Accepts Public Warning for Anti-Doping Rule Violation [KirstyJahn] [ In reply to ]

Nov 13, 17 10:23

Post #47 of 94 (7120 views)

KirstyJahn wrote:

Just shocked no one has posted about this?! Or maybe I missed it.

https://www.usada.org/lisa-roberts-accepts-public-warning-doping-violation/

her respiratory delivery limitation is manifesting as Ashma, her very well developed aerobic muscles demand more than her lungs can deliver ...

I was diagnosed with asthma several years ago, after being examined by a doctor who performed spirometry tests. Based on the testing, this is a condition I will continue to address in my daily life, regardless if I am competing or not.

Considering she is listing only last 5 years of results, it means her entire career is based on doping...Asthma seems to be main prerequisite in endurance sports, without asthma you can't have impressive results.

Re: U.S. Triathlon Athlete Lisa Roberts Accepts Public Warning for Anti-Doping Rule Violation [darkwave] [ In reply to ]

Nov 13, 17 12:08

Post #48 of 94 (7019 views)

darkwave wrote:

[She received a harsher penalty for using Breo. http://mcthrows.com/?p=1511

Well that really sucks for her and I am sure she is even more pissed if she reads this story about Lisa. This all makes it even more interesting as this seems to be inconsistent discipline on the part of USADA. I sincerely hope there are not politics involved.

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Re: U.S. Triathlon Athlete Lisa Roberts Accepts Public Warning for Anti-Doping Rule Violation [sebo2000] [ In reply to ]

Nov 13, 17 12:20

Post #49 of 94 (6994 views)

sebo2000 wrote:

her respiratory delivery limitation is manifesting as Ashma, her very well developed aerobic muscles demand more than her lungs can deliver ...

You're operating under the assumption that bronchodilators improve the breathing of anyone who takes them - that's a fallacy.

Asthma is essentially the muscles of one's lungs clenching up - bronchodilators encourage those muscles to relax. If you don't have asthma to begin with, there's nothing for them to address.

The diagnostic test for asthma is a bronchodilator challenge - you puff into a machine to get a baseline, then inhale a large amount of albuterol using a nebulizer. Then you puff into the machine again and they note the difference in flows, if any.

In order to be diagnosed with asthma, you need to have a significant difference in the before and after. Hopefully that fact illustrates to you that taking albuterol or any other beta-agonist is not going to improve the breathing of a non-asthmatic.

Re: U.S. Triathlon Athlete Lisa Roberts Accepts Public Warning for Anti-Doping Rule Violation [darkwave] [ In reply to ]

Nov 13, 17 12:36

Post #50 of 94 (6944 views)

darkwave wrote:

Asthma is essentially the muscles of one's lungs clenching up - bronchodilators encourage those muscles to relax. If you don't have asthma to begin with, there's nothing for them to address.

asthma is a catch-all for a number of conditions. that's why the medications differ, not only in brand but in class: bronchodilators versus corticosteroids (to name two classes). your asthma might be caused by muscular spasms or by inflammation. further, bronchodilators might be long-lasting or rescue medication. so, it's not quite as cut and dried as you're saying. an athlete may very well choose to bring rescue medication along for the ride, during a race. and to use it.

if you're saying that bronchodilators aren't great as a prophylactic, okay. but, to add a further class, there's one very good reason why they aren't allowed in oral form. have you ever taken one? because i have, and you feel like you can breathe in the entire atmosphere of the world. they absolutely do work.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

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