Others responded to your post so I'll just say; sorry I just don't agree with you.

I feel for the family and friends.

---

Train safe & smart
Bob

And how do you "standardize" this.

Sh&t happens. There is nothing to say that these people could not swim. People can have bad days. You can have an excellent swimmer who just goes out hard, has a cramp, takes a solid kick to the head and things can go down quickly from there. There are still deaths every year during marathons, and it is the same thing... Some people are more acclimated to the heat, other times, people's bodies can just have a bad day. Testing does nothing... Just as someone can go out in the same chop and same conditions and do the distance, you put them in a "race" scenario, and things fly out the window.

What a load of crap...

From the articles I've read including the most recent in the NY Times there were more safety personell at that race than any race I've ever done. Sounds like it was well organized and well staffed. People die during races. Its tragic, but it happens. Hec PEOPLE DIE. It happens... every year there are articles about deaths in triathlons, deaths in marathons, and I bet plenty of people die in neighborhood 5Ks. 99% of the time these deaths are unrelated to the race (other than the fact that racing puts stress on the body) and are due to heart conditions or other medical issues. They aren't due to poor organization or a lack of safety or preparadness or drowning on the course. If you want to jump to conclusions and blame it on "big business" none of us are going to be able to stop you, but thats a load of crap.

And for the record... (and I mean no disrespect for the parties involved in this or any other tragedy) If I ever die while racing there better not be a thread about why it happened full of bullshit guesses with no factual backup and everyone rushing to jump to conlusions... just a celebration of the fact that I went out doing what I loved racing as hard as I possibly could.

I agree. USAT needs to take a proactive role in protecting the sport. I don't think there is an easy answer to this problem, but it needs to be addressed. This is bad for everybody. It can lead to cancellationn of events, and increased ins cost for the RD's, which they will then pass the costs on the atheletes. That being said, an MI can happen at any time, even to a well trained swimmer.

And for the record... (and I mean no disrespect for the parties involved in this or any other tragedy) If I ever die while racing there better not be a thread about why it happened full of bullshit guesses with no factual backup and everyone rushing to jump to conlusions... just a celebration of the fact that I went out doing what I loved racing as hard as I possibly could.
----------------------------------------------
That's how I look at it.

---

Train safe & smart
Bob

Sorry but had to respond to this, I've done the race multiple times and to say it's a "bad race" is just wrong. Bad things happen in races all the time. This is horrible but it has nothing to do with the NYC Tri in particular.

Don't post much here. Sorry to hear this anytime a death or injury happens at any event.

This thread seems to take a different turn. A lot of valid points, but probably more worthy of a dedicated thread to discuss race safety/entry limits and so on.

+1 on the WOW! Are you kidding me....this is a much harsher version of what a lot of people are saying here and I think both versions suck. It's called personal responsibility. We all have to take it. I appreciate support in the tri's I do, but I am ultimately responsible for my actions - if I physically push myself on the run through the wall until my body is shutting down (did this in my first 70.3) - it is my responsibility if that injures me, effects my ability to finish, etc. I was climbing Denali in May when the first large fatality accident and rescue operation took place. Climbers got reamed for the use of public money for rescue and why we would do such a thing and put ourselves in danger. Here's the fact - we DO pay for our own rescue, and as another poster said, no one gets out alive so you have to live. RD do all they can to improve safety and mitigate risk, but the final risk is called living. Who flew to that race, or drove on an interstate, or rides in traffic, or ever rides without a helmet? There are risks all around us - ultimately some are controllable and the rest are just that - RISKS. Sorry for the rant.

---

________________________________________________
Don't Just Live, Thrive!
Thrive Kinematics Physical Therapy - http://www.facebook.com/...8178667572974?ref=hl

+1

Unfortunately, with TT starts it seams the RD's goal is to get everyone in the water sooner and thus off the course quicker. Instead of using it to truly space people out.

So very sad......I would suggest that instead of finding reasons for why this must have been the swimmer or RD's fault(s) why not just at least salute this gentleman for having the stones to toe the line at age 64 in such a challenging endurance event. The prevalence of these races, I think, leads some to believe that anyone can do it or that it is no big deal. Well, it is a big deal especially if you are 64. I am 43 and give anyone 20 years my senior big props for being out there. (Last year at IMLP I rode much of the bike with a 70 year old dude who went slow and steady aero the whole way!). I am very sad for this racer and his family and hope they find peace in at least knowing that he was living his life to the fullest.

I've done a total of ~60 races that have had open water swims (tris and swim-only races), including IMLP. The swim at NYC yesterday was the one that stands out as the safest to me, given the very high number of water safety personnel, including NYPD/FDNY boats, and the fact that the swim is next to the river walkway where there were lots of spectators/volunteers/other racers that were additional sets of eyes that could potentially spot something. I thought the TT start went very well, and wasn't nearly as congested as the traditional wave or mass start (and as a female in one of the later yellow starts that passed a ton of swimmers, it really wasn't that difficult getting around the slower swimmers). It was a very well-organized race overall, about the best I have seen. I never once felt that safety was comprised for cost at any point of my entire race experience, even with the number of people on the bike course (IMLP is worse through the downhill on the first loop, and I got passed by lots of cyclists at both races). Safety was clearly the primary focus from everything I saw this weekend.

And as for the guy that died, given his age and the fact that he had done a number of running races (and not slowly, I might add), it sounds like it was unfortunately just his time to die, regardless of whether he had raced or not, and there is little anyone could have done to save him :( But still very sad for his family and friends, and the sport as a whole.

This attitude really should no longer surprise. Brian, guys like you and I are at the pointy fitness end of a very fringe sporting activity: the general public has no clue about and no appreciation of what we do.

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

I do agree with you, but can you imagine a race where everyone who is racing actually can swim a few strokes. It would possibly eliminate the kicking in the head and mauling someone underwater. There is a reason why you have to be PADI certified to scuba dive. Heck if every hotel on earth can give a little course for first timers it can't be to hard. Shoot the one day USAT liscensce and fee will make money back for the USAT and race directors and more then cover insurance cosr. Might get some people to say "hey" this is not for me and divert a tragedy. Maybe we can have some race directors chime in here.

---

__________________________________________________
Official Polar Ambassador
http://www.google.com/...P7RiWyEVwpunlsc2JtQQ

x2
I've been racing for five years and this is the first time I've raced NYC Tri - gotta say, I was very impressed with the entire race - ESPECIALLY THE SWIM. The management of the swim portion was one of the best I've ever seen. I can't speak to the response time of the gentleman who died, but all other rescues/assists I witnessed were executed perfectly (and I witnessed a lot as I was M35-39 and one of the last Red waves to go off).

One thing I did notice was a lot of swimmers who didn't belong there and happened to comment on it to a fellow racer in my corral. I think people look to big events like NYC as a novelty or "something cool to do" and they don't adequately train. I AM NOT SAYING THE MAN OR WOMAN IN QUESTION DIDN'T TRAIN PROPERLY, I'm saying the people I witnessed floating on their backs for 20 mins and hanging on to noodles didn't.

People have a responsibility to police/govern themselves - otherwise the rest of us get policed/governed to make up for the former's mistakes. Once people start realizing they have an obligation to their fellow man/woman, our society will begin that change for the better we're all hoping for.

---

"It's not the will to win that matters - everyone has that. It's the will to prepare to win that matters." - Paul "Bear" Bryant

Some major differences. PADI diving and racing are two very different things. I have also seen experienced divers freak or panic, but I think over all the biggest contributing factor to this particular event was the fact that it was a race. From the background I have heard on the man who died, he was 64 and had been a run, so cardio vascular fitness does not seem to be an issue. Heart attacks are often from stress, or also from other conditions. A person I know had a heart attack 17 years ago just driving to pick up a printer. They are still around, were in decent shape at the time, so sometimes they just happen. Also knew a running growing up who had a heart attack in their 20s and they had already been a track star, marathoner, etc. Remember Jim Fixx? He dies doing what? Running. He had a heart attack and really was caused by blocked arteries. This is not something that "standardization" testing is going to fix. Jim Fixx was also 12 years younger than the triathlete who died...

And before I forget, my condolences to his friends and family.

Race day is something different. You can talk about it. You can prepare for it... but that gun, whistle, horn, what ever goes off you can have races where you just are calm, and other times can be incredibly hectic. I think there are just days when some people "get caught" up in the field, they go out too hard, and maybe that is all that it takes, or the water may be colder than they expect and it shocks their system, or what ever.

If it was happening to 100s of athletes, than it would be an issue, but there is what? 1 or 2 deaths a year? This is not to belittle the tragedies, and yes, some people, excuse the pun, get in over their heads, but as a whole, most people learn, thrive and survive without the need for certification. Most learn to go their own pace, how to calm when the go out to hard, etc.

As a PADI certified diver, I just see it as different. I can go out swimming all day throughout the day and not have to worry about my nitrogen levels, as well as can jump on a plane later. I also can float at the surface, and not find myself down at 100 feet with no air. The amount of equipment and complexity as well as residual affects on the body from the activity are a lot less complicated with swimming than scuba diving.

First, my heart goes out to the victims families, can't imagine what their going through now.....

Second, that swim has always been sketchy, the RD's haven't learned anything over the years. I did the first NYC ( I think it was the first ) and the current was really ripping, so much so, that I had to work hard to make the left turn to get to the pier that had the exit ramp. Right at that intersection there was a barge and I thought to myself "what would happen if I missed that turn", well as it turned out plenty of people did and found themselves forced UNDER the barge scraping along the barnacle encrusted bottom. I can't imagine what was going through their minds as the water turned completely black and they tumbled under the barge. Kudos to my friend who was there watching the race, he jumped on the barge and tried to help, as best he could, the swimmers who popped up at the rear of the barge....

I think the black water, waves and strong current aren't taken seriously enough....

Ron W.

Unfortunately, a USAT License is akin to a marriage license, not a PADI cert or a drivers license. To shift to a true skills based licensing program would cause big problems for most of us, even if we are capable of passing any reasonable test. Most of the small sprint races would cease to exist when people can't just "jump into" a race and the big races would suffer as well. The people at the back of the pack are paying for the rest of us to compete by entering races and buying the toys. If we start making it cumbersome for the average Joe/Jane to get in an event we are going start having fewer events to go to and have to pay more for them and the toys we love.

With that said, check out the results for the Smith Point Triathlon (www.eventpowerli.com) That race was run at the same time as Nautica about 60 miles east in the same weather conditions. The swim was a "fish hook" course with the long section of the hook into the wind and against the tide. This years fastest swimmer was almost 3 minutes slower than last years. I didn't do it, but my wife did, and she swam 15:30 for 500 meters. She was in about the middle of the swim performance that day. If those people had needed to pass a swim performance test would that race have existed? I doubt it. There were a lot of people that got in trouble during the swim, yet only a couple didn't finish the swim.

---

"...the street finds its own uses for things"

...and that is the fault of the RD? why? People need to take responsibility for their own actions.

---

"It's not the will to win that matters - everyone has that. It's the will to prepare to win that matters." - Paul "Bear" Bryant

Sad to say, but the woman who was in critical condition has passed away. http://es.pn/mWXm9U

---

-------------------------
Jonathan Cane
City Coach Multisport
http://www.citycoach.org

Of course my heart goes out to the families in this tragedy. I would just like to say that again before it is lost.
I agree with you that PADI certification is a totally different with learning nitrogen levels and time under water and stuff but is also weeds out people who cant take a mask off at depth, put back on and clear. It is a reality check. If a course for first timers weeds out only one father, mother, son cousin...etc. and brings them home safely well then a first timer course was worth it even if it was only one. We won't know it helped of we will and bitch and moan about the course. But that is human nature at it's best

---

__________________________________________________
Official Polar Ambassador
http://www.google.com/...P7RiWyEVwpunlsc2JtQQ

Well, in the case of my race they should have realized that that barge was directly in the path of swimmers, if they failed to make that left turn to the dock with the exit ramp they had no way to avoid going under the barge, it was impossible to stop with the 3 knot current pushing you downstream. Now if I gave that some thought as I made that turn (and I am a strong swimmer, 2nd out of the water in my AG) the RD's should have realized the consequences of the placement of the barge.

Ron W.

I did the tri this year and tried to write a constructive feedback comment to the directors of the race. I have not done any tris in a few years because of injuries, ect. I signed up for NY after volunteering last year. I started training a year ago and knew I was a weak swimmer and biker. I did clinics, OWS, practice and did a few sprints this year. Every time I told people I was nervous about the swim I was confronted w/its an easy swim a bag of cheetos can float down the river in 20 minutes. After hearing this several times, I finally responded, "I'm not a bag of cheetos, I'm human, things go wrong medically, mentally, physically and poor weather conditions. A bag of cheetos does not need to worry about these things. I want to be able to deal with this and not have an unfortunate accident. I was the last of the 40-44 TT to enter the water, therefore the pink wave was 10 seconds behind me (relay race wave). I was about 25 yards from the woman who was pulled out of the water. The rescuers responded quickly, however all the boats came - almost hitting swimmers in the water and creating alot of chaos for swimmers in the area. I am glad I trained as hard as I did because while I wasn't fast it helped me to stay calm, pace myself and get through the race. Because I was the end of the female wave I had to deal with passing alot of beginner riders on the course, it was congested, raining, and unsafe at times. Women were freaking out on the transition out jumping off their bikes and causing others to fall. I found on the bike it was more exhausting trying to pass, yelling to your left then doing the bike itself. Also, I have never seen so many people on noodles in a race. NYC needs to respond and ensure safety for all the participants - I agree with others who say this should not be the first tri someone participates in. I finished the race strong....not a PR, but strong and confident in my skills and ability. I hope that NYC changes the marketing of this race to ensure safety for all the athletes....also future athletes should not do this as a first race. It's a challenging event and you want to be prepared for the worst conditions. I know that the swim was a challenge for me despite my training (choppy waters, being hit by some waves and not being able to site and the unfortunate incident). My thoughts and prayers are with both families and hope NYC responds as this event grows in popularity.

Female passed as well.

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/44060936/ns/sports/

Very sorry to hear. I should've left well enough alone.

As an aside, your reference mentioned that 26 other swimmers required assistance during the race. Clearly, a very busy day for the support crews and EMS. This was despite a hybrid time trial/wave start that started 20 people at a time supposedly. I can only think that there were a considerable number of people that weren't ready or had no right to be toeing the line. Any number of reasons for starting when they shouldn't, too oblivious to understand the nature and demands of the event, too much ego to be objective about their skills, too much pride to back out after publically announcing their intentions, or friends that cajole, over influence undertrained buddies to race. In any event, if this trend continues, I foresee a future with qualification requirements.

---

Behold the turtle! He makes progess only when he sticks his neck out. (James Bryant Conant)
GET OFF THE F*%KING WALL!!!!!!! (Doug Stern)
Brevity is the soul of wit. (William Shakespeare)