I don't quite get that last statement, you can run tubeless with normal tires, not just UST.

Lower pressure without pinch flats was the benefit over latex tubes.

Tubular XC wheels are simply the same as CX wheels, just a little beefier. Not anything new. Same benefits of lower pressure w/o pinch flatting.

I was tubeless using mold builder and electrical tape back in '01 when I last raced XC. That was in the "pre-Stans" era.

If you don't mind dealing with the mess if you get a puncture that can't be sealed...or, the fact that the stuff dries up over time (which makes it a poor choice for me since my MTB sees only periodic use these days).


I think you mean over butyl tubes. I don't know of ANYONE besides myself who actually runs latex in their MTB tires, and I haven't had a single pinch OR puncture since I started using them (although, as I admit above I don't use my MTB as much any more, but it HAS been quite a few years since I switched to latex in the MTB)...and I run pretty low pressures typically too. You need to on the trails around here to maintain traction.


Again, that comparison should be noted as in relation to butyl tubes. How many people running clincher CX wheels use latex tubes?

I find it interesting that of the 2 pinch flats I've had on the road in the past year (and the first ones for MANY years) happened with butyl tubes :-/



Yup...me too. Brewed up some DIY tubeless myself. Had to be careful with tire selection though, since some tire beads were too loose and at lower pressures the bead would "burp" and lose pressure. I lost a good rear rim that way :-(

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Which Tufo tubular can you fold up as small as a tube? What is the name of the model? If that is true I would like to use it for my next race. My current spare folds too big. Does it have butyl tube or latex?

(Edit: And more importantly, which Tufo tubular model is 130 grams? Searching on the web, the lightest I can see is the Elite Jet at 160 grams but that's it. And that one wouldn't work for me me as its only 20 mm. I ride 23)

I think they are referring to the Tufo elite track tubular.

If that's the case (and I'll wait on styrell to respond to hear more) then we would not be comparing apples to apples. It doesn't seem like a fair comparison. If you get a flat with your clincher tire and put spare tube in and you still have the same tire. Yes it might be a bit a slower, post-flat if you replaced a flat latex tube with butyl but it's still the same tire otherwise. You certainly haven't lost any durability

But if I my replace one of my 23 mm tubular tires with a 19 mm track tubular.... not so much. I wouldn't do that for the same reason I don't ride 19 mm tires in the first place. They're not enough tire. If I bring a spare I want an actual spare. Once I've fixed a flat in a race, I think the point is finishing the bike safely without more flats, not minimizing rolling resistance. I suppose I'm willing to use something perhaps a bit slower and possibly a bit less durable in order to get a tire that folds a little smaller but certainly not a 19 mm track tire. I might as well just bring some PitStop and cross my fingers. Or not bring anything at all. (That would be lighter!)

I've been thinking ever since this post that I'll probably flat at my next race...

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It's not how many years you have left in life, it's how much life you have left in your years!

I was just using his numbers from earlier in the conversation...to be honest honest, I'm a time whore, thus the purchase of the Zipps in the first place. I just hide it since I'm a MOP'r.

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It's not how many years you have left in life, it's how much life you have left in your years!

Yes the elite track tubular. Remember by definition we ae talking about a spare tire. TYou've already flatted and are just trying to finish as quickly as possible. If you are at this point of the discussion its a safe your original tire wheel set up was picked with spped in mind, so its an A race.

With clinchers you are going to use a butyl tube which will be slower and has the big risk that the flat is a bigger blow out making the tire itself unuseable (rare, but not at all unheard of) with tubulars you have two entire spares, and still a weight advantage, you could slice both tire and still be on the raod in a 20 minutes max vs being completely out of the race if its a A IM race.

lets face it if you flat with either system. You're not going to PR. I just prefer the system that starts out fastest, and then gives me the maximum chasnce to at least finish if I flat. I, unlike most, am not saying that my preferences and goals have to be yours, just replying the the weight advantage tubulars disappears when you add in flat protection

My long course set up is 1 can of pitstop (can work with clinchers but works more often with tubulars, and a spare light Tufo tubular, with a Co2. If I get a flat an haven't ever with tire at the very top of the Crr list, maybe the pitstop gets me to the finish with a 2 minute penalty, but the spare gets me there with a 10 minute penalty. I'll take that.

Styrrell

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Styrrell

If you don't mind dealing with the mess if you get a puncture that can't be sealed...or, the fact that the stuff dries up over time (which makes it a poor choice for me since my MTB sees only periodic use these days).

Seeing as your original reply to me talking about the adoption of pros using tubulars in WC and OG races, the n yes I'm certain they will take the speed over convenience. The reason I'm certain is because they do in fact choose it. How did a discussion that starteds with your speculating that no one would adopt tubulars if clinchers came first, and my pointing out that pro mountain bikers have adiopted them even though clinchers came first, become about what Tom would use periodically. In spite of your almost literal God complex, what works best for you doesn't always work best for Pro racers in once in a lifetime events.

I think you mean over butyl tubes. I don't know of ANYONE besides myself who actually runs latex in their MTB tires, and I haven't had a single pinch OR puncture since I started using them (although, as I admit above I don't use my MTB as much any more, but it HAS been quite a few years since I switched to latex in the MTB)...and I run pretty low pressures typically too. You need to on the trails around here to maintain traction.

So now you either make your own mtb latex tubes or have a factory that makes them just for you? I'm pretty certain neither is true and if you can buy them, even if you have to really search maybe just maybe you aren't the only person in the world who's smart enough to use a product thats available by pressing Buy Now on a website.

Again, that comparison should be noted as in relation to butyl tubes. How many people running clincher CX wheels use latex tubes?

I doubt either of us really knows, but more germaine to this discussion is virtually every top cross rider uses tubulars with latex tubes vs clinchers with either latex or butyl.


I find it interesting that of the 2 pinch flats I've had on the road in the past year (and the first ones for MANY years) happened with butyl tubes :-/

So what, flats with clinchers and butyl tubes has what to do with mtb using clinchers, either with butyl, latex, or tubeless vs mtbers adopting tubulars in the search for better performance?


Yup...me too. Brewed up some DIY tubeless myself. Had to be careful with tire selection though, since some tire beads were too loose and at lower pressures the bead would "burp" and lose pressure. I lost a good rear rim that way :-(

Which is likely why pro mtbers are looking at tubulars. All the low pressure benefits of DIY tubeless with little of the risk. More cost and set up, but that hardly is a factor in top level pro mtb racing.

Styrrell

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Styrrell

Interesting. Currently my long course set up is a full spare tubular. Problem is of course that it is very big even when folded. I just bought a new spare tubular that has butyl in it. I did this because it occurred to me that the latex in my spare is not going to hold the CO2 very well. I might be you willing to consider pit stop and a smaller spare. I don't suppose you have a photo of your folded spare do you?

While I agree that clinchers are easier for everyday use...there is something about racing on a tubie that feels oh so right. I can't quite explain it, but when I put those wheels on my bike it's like I'm going into battle. They "feel" faster and thats all I need...half of racing is in your head and when I feel fast, I am fast.

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I got nothing.

No, but I fold the tubular up and wrap it with duct tape, along with a razor blade, Park multi allen wrench, and tire lever. This gets jammed in between my saddle rails and secured using either a toe clip strap of velco strap. The top of the package touches the underside of the saddle and the bottom is barely lower than the bottom of the seat rails. Unless a pic is taken from the back of the bike pointing up at the saddle you would never see it. The CO2 is in a bento as is the flat proof canister and gels. This is on top of the stem and is blocked by the top of an aerobottle between the aerobars. I can use a bento directly behind the sten on the TT because I ride knockneed (always have) and my knees would get rubbed raw.

Styrrell

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Styrrell

This post by Tom A. is worth quoting for extra emphasis... quoting a few times even. I think it would be really fascinating to do rolling resistance testing on a sample of tubular wheels as actually used in competition by triathletes. I bet all those rosy assumptions of "I'm faster because I ride tubies" would be blown to hell because the real world performance of those wheels is underwhelming due to rolling resistance caused by the glue job.

If you have a shop glue your tires for you, odds are they aren't glued properly and you'd probably be better off with clinchers. Not to mention the slim likelihood that the shop actually stocks and glues on low crr tires. If you don't carefully glue your tires for low rolling resistance, you'd be better off on clinchers. How many are still leaving that unglued section of the tire that will allow you to tear it off quickly? Terrible for rolling resistance.

If you know what you're doing and use low crr tires, hey, have at it and enjoy those tubies.

It's not particularly difficult to glue tubulars if you don't care about actual performance. If you do care, it's not nearly as easy. Personally, I bailed on tubies years ago and haven't looked back. Can't say that extra pound or so of weight has had any noticeable ill effect on my performance. Speaking as a recovering ex-weight weenie myself, I suspect that although most would never admit it, weight-weenie-ism is a large part of the appeal of tubulars.

I'm not gonna argue with most of your post because it pretty much deals with assuming people that use tubulars are screw ups and people that use clinchers make great choices. Fine if thats your opinion.

But where is your data that leaving an inch of unglued tubular is even noticable. Sure a poor job on the wholle tire is well proven to be bad, but where did you fnd any evidence for 1 inch being terrible?

Styrrell

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Styrrell

You must have missed where I wrote, "If you know what you're doing and use low crr tires, hey, have at it and enjoy those tubbies." No, I don't think that everyone that uses tubbies is a screw up. But so many people post as if just using tubulars is in and of itself automatically faster, and that isn't true. There's lots of evidence that many people aren't using optimal setups based on the number of posts here over the years about lightly-glued tires and how easy and fast it is to change a flat.

There's been a good amount of data posted in recent years demonstrating that tubulars only have good rolling resistance when they are very solidly glued. Not much of a stretch to assume that having part of your tire not glued at all isn't so hot for rolling resistance. (Not to mention the possibility of rolling a tire.) And I recall many of the people that leave a section unglued talk about 2-3", not 1".

Actually I did miss that line. But the test you want has already been done. Its Als poor glue job, and I've never heard of someone who glued only one side with 0 glue on the other before him, so you pretty much can use that as a worse case scenario. I suspect, as does Al that a more normal glue job would get close to his better results.

Aside from that I agree that a lot of what I hear on here from Tri users is poor gluing (and that for most tri athletes clinchers would be a better choice), but clincher users don't have a lock on great set ups either. Does anyone wonder why its very rare (as in I've never seen it in 2 large metro areas) to see a shop stock latex tubes, not to mention the reports of latex blowing off tires or mysteriously exploding. I liked other feel its user error, but still it happens more commonly than I'd like iff I were to recommend using them to a newbie. Also a whole lot of top quality clincher races wheelshave brake track melting issues.

When I hear people say most trathletes that use tubulars don't have optimal set ups I think, right and most clincher riders have just released Firecrest CC, special order latex tubes and have a supply of the fastest obsolete tubulars. (I've never seen an Ultraspeed for sale, and you have to go a bit down the list to find a low Crr narrow tire aside from it and the VF record)

Styrrell

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Styrrell

interesting. a lot of people are saying that "flats are expensive." as a race day wheel option, i can ONLY afford tubulars. I spent a total of $550 on my zipp 900/blackwell 100 combo, including tires. I run a conti competition 21mm tire in back, and a 19mm in front. granted, i'm light- 140lb. I carry no race day spare- its a race! all that preparedness is just negativity! I also race for different reasons than most triathletes as I'm a pro-a weak one, but still a pro-and a race is simply something that I do to pay rent. if I DNF, there is a another race next weekend (and no, I don't often DNF, its only happened once, and I was 17, and the 40k bike course at the NJ state tri somehow became 40mi) so i might as well cut my losses. so, i dont carry a spare, sometimes a pit stop in 70.3s if the road is bumpy. If i flat, i know my day is over but I can just get on the line again next week.

now, the clincher version of my wheelset would run me upwards of 1500 used, and like $2200 new. an 80+mm clincher front race wheel goes for somewhere between 500-700used, and the disc runs for $1000 for sure. NOw throw in good race tires and tubes- michelin pro3 races with spinskins maybe, and some solid latex tubes, and were up to $1600+ in a heartbeat. It would take me 8 or 9 flats- race day flats, mind you, as i only ride my race wheels race day-to pay off that clincher investment. I say, go tubular. pinch flats are less likely, you can ride the flat tubular for a little while, and the wheels are dirt cheap.

Of course it is. There's nothing complicated about waiting for glue to dry. It just takes more time.

This.