Tubular Gluing... A MESS! And Still Not Done.

Aug 24, 05 20:06

Post #1 of 40 (4243 views)

OK, so I tried to glue up my Zipp tires onto my 606s. Anyone who says this is no big deal is insane. I am a pretty good wrench, have rebuilt cars and houses without worry. But this, well, this sucked.

1) Apparently, gluing the base tape takes away a HUGE amount of stretchiness, or actually shrinks the tape. When I pre-stretched tires, they went on (and rolled right off, even when inflated) with easy thumb pressure. When I glued them on today, the battle was absolutely fierce to even get close. I never could get the rear one on.

2) I got the front one on, but by then the glue on the rim was pretty much dry. Sure, where I had applied it a little thick, it was sticking. But it was not a clean stick all the way around. And the tire is way too tight to peel back and insert more glue. I inflated it, spun it. It looked straight, but had a huge hump near the valve that makes the wheel bounce up/down in your hands as you spin it. Super. Can't do anything about that either.

So, I tore the tire back off and am staring at $2500 worth of glued up mess in my garage. Now WTF? Should have gone with clinchers. I knew it.

**************
Too f@ckin depressed from various injuries to care about having a signature line.

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Re: Tubular Gluing... A MESS! And Still Not Done. [Aztec] [ In reply to ]

Aug 24, 05 20:20

Post #2 of 40 (4236 views)

sorry to hear your story. all that work for tires that have more rolling resistance. seems crazy.

advice: clean off both the zipp wheels perfectly and then sell them on ebay? the tires? well, give them to buddy that likes the man vs. tubular war.

then buy clinchers?

Where would you want to swim ?

Re: Tubular Gluing... A MESS! And Still Not Done. [Aztec] [ In reply to ]

Aug 24, 05 20:28

Post #3 of 40 (4232 views)

I just do my tubies the lazy way, glue the rim, slide the pre-stretched-but-not-glued tubies on, inflate, let sit for 48 hours. They seem to hold well enough for me, but then again I don't corner hard on 20mm rubber either. So, if you can clean up the outside of the rim well enough, you can probably give this another shot with new tires and just fleabay the ones you can't get to stretch right.

Re: Tubular Gluing... A MESS! And Still Not Done. [Greg X] [ In reply to ]

Aug 24, 05 20:35

Post #4 of 40 (4224 views)

Heh heh. HAD clinchers... for a day. Changed my mind and sent them back for tubs. If I didn't have a Powertap SL in there, I'd definitely sell them (and get Hed Alps... the Zipp 606 clincher is just too beefy).

BTW, the Zipp tires sat fine, without the lump, before glue. And yet they seem to sit nice and flat on there (i.e., there ain't no way to get that tire to sit flatter).

There's a high end wheel shop around here. I may just take them there and have them glue it up. Put one thin coat on a spare, and call it a day.

**************
Too f@ckin depressed from various injuries to care about having a signature line.

Sponsored by Blue Shield PPO.

Re: Tubular Gluing... A MESS! And Still Not Done. [Aztec] [ In reply to ]

Aug 24, 05 20:47

Post #5 of 40 (4213 views)

Too much glue maybe? Wearing gloves apply glue to the rim spreading the glue out with my finger then do the same on the tubbie. Give it a good :10-3min depending upon how much beer is left, then stick in the valve and stretch both sides of the tire pulling evenly away from the valve for about 7 inches or so. Then rip off the gloves slap on a new pair and pop that sucker on there.

I never get hops near the valve or only little ones that I can't feel riding by really pulling hard anchoring the tubbie down near the valve hole.

Bring them over with a couple of beers and I'll whip them on for you.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Re: Tubular Gluing... A MESS! And Still Not Done. [Aztec] [ In reply to ]

Aug 24, 05 20:48

Post #6 of 40 (4212 views)

Which is why tubies suck!!!!!

Re: Tubular Gluing... A MESS! And Still Not Done. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]

Aug 24, 05 20:59

Post #7 of 40 (4202 views)

In Reply To:

Too much glue maybe? Wearing gloves apply glue to the rim spreading the glue out with my finger then do the same on the tubbie. Give it a good :10-3min depending upon how much beer is left, then stick in the valve and stretch both sides of the tire pulling evenly away from the valve for about 7 inches or so. Then rip off the gloves slap on a new pair and pop that sucker on there.

I never get hops near the valve or only little ones that I can't feel riding by really pulling hard anchoring the tubbie down near the valve hole.

Bring them over with a couple of beers and I'll whip them on for you.

Damn, that's just about what I did (except I used a toothbrush to apply the glue).

DDude, I'd bring a whole 12-er... if you weren't in another state entirely!

**************
Too f@ckin depressed from various injuries to care about having a signature line.

Sponsored by Blue Shield PPO.

Re: Tubular Gluing... A MESS! And Still Not Done. [Aztec] [ In reply to ]

Aug 24, 05 21:11

Post #8 of 40 (4191 views)

We'll if it's really good beer and you bump it to a case I can be convinced to move. I've glued a ton of tires in my day, including 15 sets in one afternoon for my bike racing team. Thems was a lot of 6 packs!!

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Re: Tubular Gluing... A MESS! And Still Not Done. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]

Aug 24, 05 21:39

Post #9 of 40 (4174 views)

I can't help but wonder if the 15th set -- after a buncha those sodas -- went on as straight as the first!

Stone cold sober, I barely could wrassle that one tire on. And once on, there was no adjusting from there!

**************
Too f@ckin depressed from various injuries to care about having a signature line.

Sponsored by Blue Shield PPO.

Re: Tubular Gluing... A MESS! And Still Not Done. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]

Aug 24, 05 21:43

Post #10 of 40 (4170 views)

In Reply To:

Too much glue maybe? Wearing gloves apply glue to the rim spreading the glue out with my finger then do the same on the tubbie. Give it a good :10-3min depending upon how much beer is left, then stick in the valve and stretch both sides of the tire pulling evenly away from the valve for about 7 inches or so. Then rip off the gloves slap on a new pair and pop that sucker on there.

I never get hops near the valve or only little ones that I can't feel riding by really pulling hard anchoring the tubbie down near the valve hole.

Bring them over with a couple of beers and I'll whip them on for you.

Back to your method here, I don't think I overdid the glue. What I must have done was let it get too dry. It was dry to the touch every place it wasn't thicker than I had intended. Call it 5 mins or so. And then another few mins to actually get the tire on the rim.

If I do this again, or really if the shop does it, this will be a 4th layer of glue on the rim (Vittoria Mastik1). When is it just too much and time to clean it all off and start over?

I am sick to my stomach thinking of this.

**************
Too f@ckin depressed from various injuries to care about having a signature line.

Sponsored by Blue Shield PPO.

Re: Tubular Gluing... A MESS! And Still Not Done. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]

Aug 24, 05 21:47

Post #11 of 40 (4165 views)

In Reply To:

Too much glue maybe? Wearing gloves apply glue to the rim spreading the glue out with my finger then do the same on the tubbie. Give it a good :10-3min depending upon how much beer is left, then stick in the valve and stretch both sides of the tire pulling evenly away from the valve for about 7 inches or so. Then rip off the gloves slap on a new pair and pop that sucker on there.

I never get hops near the valve or only little ones that I can't feel riding by really pulling hard anchoring the tubbie down near the valve hole.

Bring them over with a couple of beers and I'll whip them on for you.

Wait a minute... you glue the tire right before mounting, too? Huh. I let that dry overnight. I have a 3rd tire w/ zero glue on it. Maybe I should coat that tire, coat the rim one more F-ing time, and then quickly mount it before the tire loses it's stretch? That would be one down, one more to go. Of course, though, I found the tape to be pretty porous, so it needed two coats to "look" coated.

**************
Too f@ckin depressed from various injuries to care about having a signature line.

Sponsored by Blue Shield PPO.

Re: Tubular Gluing... A MESS! And Still Not Done. [Aztec] [ In reply to ]

Aug 24, 05 21:56

Post #12 of 40 (4155 views)

If you are near LA I'll mount them on Thursday for free. Once you have seen it done right you won't believe how easy it is. As others have said you have to start stretch at the valve or you will be f-ed by the time you reach the far side of the rim.

Ron

----------

Re: Tubular Gluing... A MESS! And Still Not Done. [Aztec] [ In reply to ]

Aug 24, 05 22:22

Post #13 of 40 (4144 views)

i always check the tire tape. If it is soaking up the glue, I'll apply a second strip, same with carbon rims. I glued several pair in the past where I got around and the glue had soaked into the carbon rim. It was almost completly dry and tackless. In that case a second or third coat is needed. I apply the rim glue a bit heavy, the tire glue not so heavy to help keep the sidewalls cleaner.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Re: Tubular Gluing... A MESS! And Still Not Done. [Aztec] [ In reply to ]

Aug 24, 05 22:30

Post #14 of 40 (4143 views)

You do want to put a fresh coat on just before mounting. You can put it on both tire and rim if you want but I just do one. Sounds to me like you are not stretching the tire enough as you pull it around. That is why it is suddenly so tight. You have to stretch the hell out of each section before you set it on the wheel. First time is the worst, you'll get better.

Re: Tubular Gluing... A MESS! And Still Not Done. [Aztec] [ In reply to ]

Aug 25, 05 0:03

Post #15 of 40 (4124 views)

Don't believe the naysayers; buying tubulars to race on was a good choice.

And it gets easier the more often you glue them. Contrary to the anti-Tufo, anti-glue tape threads here, I had a whole season's worth of trouble free racing on a set of tubulars and went faster than ever, though I am sure that was mostly my increase in volume of training. Tubulars are worth racing on for none other reason that the impossibility of a pinch flat when you accidently hit something hard. I once ran over one of those little six-foot long cement 'curbs' when I had my head down and wasn't looking in a race. No flat, no problem. Finished the race and had a great time.

Chad

Re: Tubular Gluing... A MESS! And Still Not Done. [swmrdrn] [ In reply to ]

Aug 25, 05 6:31

Post #16 of 40 (4064 views)

In Reply To:

If you are near LA I'll mount them on Thursday for free. Once you have seen it done right you won't believe how easy it is. As others have said you have to start stretch at the valve or you will be f-ed by the time you reach the far side of the rim.

Ron

Thanks, Ron. I'm in Nor Cal. :-(

How many times can I try this before I just have too many coats of glue on there and have to clean it all off and start over?

**************
Too f@ckin depressed from various injuries to care about having a signature line.

Sponsored by Blue Shield PPO.

Re: Tubular Gluing... A MESS! And Still Not Done. [Aztec] [ In reply to ]

Aug 25, 05 6:47

Post #17 of 40 (4052 views)

In Reply To:

How many times can I try this before I just have too many coats of glue on there and have to clean it all off and start over?

Technique question? When you try to mount the tire, you first insert the valve stem but what happens next? Are you then placing the unglued side of the wheel against the ground and trying to stretch the tire downward onto the rim with your thumbs?

If so, I think you should consider reversing that so that the tire/valve stem is placed at the bottom on the ground. Then you can place a foot (or feet) between the spokes to hold the wheel down and use your hands to stretch/pull the tire upwards from the ground (like an upright row with free weights). I used to use the press/stretch downward towards the ground method, that is until I started using Veloflex tires and blistered the finger print area of both thumbs from trying to mount those tires (prestrecthed/inflated to 130 on alloy tubular rims for nearly 3-weeks).

Finally, depending on which glue you use, even though you may think it has dried, unless you are in a really dry climate, it will remain tacky for several hours and will form a good bond once the tire is fully inflated.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Re: Tubular Gluing... A MESS! And Still Not Done. [ms6073] [ In reply to ]

Aug 25, 05 6:53

Post #18 of 40 (4044 views)

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

How many times can I try this before I just have too many coats of glue on there and have to clean it all off and start over?

Technique question? When you try to mount the tire, you first insert the valve stem but what happens next? Are you then placing the unglued side of the wheel against the ground and trying to stretch the tire downward onto the rim with your thumbs?

If so, I think you should consider reversing that so that the tire/valve stem is placed at the bottom on the ground. Then you can place a foot (or feet) between the spokes to hold the wheel down and use your hands to stretch/pull the tire upwards from the ground (like an upright row with free weights). I used to use the press/stretch downward towards the ground method, that is until I started using Veloflex tires and blistered the finger print area of both thumbs from trying to mount those tires (prestrecthed/inflated to 130 on alloy tubular rims for nearly 3-weeks).

Finally, depending on which glue you use, even though you may think it has dried, unless you are in a really dry climate, it will remain tacky for several hours and will form a good bond once the tire is fully inflated.

Yup, that's exactly what I did -- stretched it downward. The upright row method would be tough on such a deep rim, though (808 rear, 404 front).

As for the glue, I inflated it to 100psi and it looked like it wasn't sticking in sections. I could roll the tire back by hand (only 2-5mm, of course) and see parts that were sticky and parts that weren't. As you suggesting that by letting it sit that the other parts would eventually bond, too?

**************
Too f@ckin depressed from various injuries to care about having a signature line.

Sponsored by Blue Shield PPO.

Re: Tubular Gluing... A MESS! And Still Not Done. [Aztec] [ In reply to ]

Aug 25, 05 6:57

Post #19 of 40 (4030 views)

If I knew how much trouble tubulars were I would have stuck with my clinchers. Besides, I'm convinced my new Zipp 404s with conti tubulars are not any faster than my clincher richeys with Bontrager race lites.

Re: Tubular Gluing... A MESS! And Still Not Done. [cdw] [ In reply to ]

Aug 25, 05 7:00

Post #20 of 40 (4027 views)

No Chad, it's the tires. It's never the training. Hope all is well over there. :-)

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Re: Tubular Gluing... A MESS! And Still Not Done. [Aztec] [ In reply to ]

Aug 25, 05 7:12

Post #21 of 40 (4019 views)

I don't understand why you are finding this so difficult. Here is my method and it is relatively pain free.

Mount that tire on a rim (no glue), inflate it, and leave it there for a month.

Remove tire.

Using 3M contact adhesive (buy a can, way less mess than a tube) and a disposable paint brush, paint both rim and tire.

Wait an hour or two for them to dry. Do not join them!

Carefully mount one end of the tire on the rim, and simply roll the rest of it on the rim. You only get one shot to position it, so you must take great care, as once the two surfaces meet, they join instantly.

The glue allows you to position the tire wall perfectly against the rim with no fear of premount since the adhesive will not stick to anything other than another surface prepared with the same adhesive.

It is not tough, and it works great.

You can also use an old tubie prepped this way as a spare. The contact adhesive won't be so strong that it'll glue the tire together while it is stored, but it'll have enough to keep your tire on till you get back home.

--------------
Elivis needs boats.

Last edited by: Schwingding: Aug 25, 05 7:13

Re: Tubular Gluing... A MESS! And Still Not Done. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]

Aug 25, 05 7:30

Post #22 of 40 (3998 views)

Well then, I guess I can sleep in for the rest of my mornings here and just replace my glue-taped Tufo tubulars with something with obviously superior rolling resistance and I'll be good for next spring's racing.

That is such a relief. I was so getting tired of running the same stretch of road every day. Not to mention the only bike to ride is indoors.

I'll be kickin' back from now on.

Chad

Re: Tubular Gluing... A MESS! And Still Not Done. [cdw] [ In reply to ]

Aug 25, 05 7:33

Post #23 of 40 (3990 views)

LOL

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Re: Tubular Gluing... A MESS! And Still Not Done. [Schwingding] [ In reply to ]

Aug 25, 05 7:36

Post #24 of 40 (3983 views)

In Reply To:

I don't understand why you are finding this so difficult. Here is my method and it is relatively pain free.

Mount that tire on a rim (no glue), inflate it, and leave it there for a month.

Remove tire.

Using 3M contact adhesive (buy a can, way less mess than a tube) and a disposable paint brush, paint both rim and tire.

Wait an hour or two for them to dry. Do not join them!

Carefully mount one end of the tire on the rim, and simply roll the rest of it on the rim. You only get one shot to position it, so you must take great care, as once the two surfaces meet, they join instantly.

The glue allows you to position the tire wall perfectly against the rim with no fear of premount since the adhesive will not stick to anything other than another surface prepared with the same adhesive.

It is not tough, and it works great.

You can also use an old tubie prepped this way as a spare. The contact adhesive won't be so strong that it'll glue the tire together while it is stored, but it'll have enough to keep your tire on till you get back home.

Well, for one reason, I went with the method suggested by Park Tools, Tom Demerly, and Slowman.

I didn't need to stretch those badboys for a month. I was able to slip them right on/off easily until I got glue on 'em. They really didn't need stretching, and in fact, I don't think they stretched at all since they fit so loosely.

I hope someone gets use of this thread someday when he/she searches on "gluing tubulars"...

**************
Too f@ckin depressed from various injuries to care about having a signature line.

Sponsored by Blue Shield PPO.

Re: Tubular Gluing... A MESS! And Still Not Done. [Aztec] [ In reply to ]

Aug 25, 05 7:52

Post #25 of 40 (3970 views)

If you're in Northern California, go to Shaw's Lightweight Cycles. They just put a Veloflex on a 404 for me. Cost: $12. Avoiding what you went through: priceless.

--jens

My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers

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