Fantastic I don't have to sell all my bikes now and buy new ones!

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2024: Bevoman, Galveston, Alcatraz, Marble Falls, Santa Cruz

Listening to your customers, instead of shoving things down their throats, I kind of like that idea.

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More like not misinterpreting what your customers needs/asks are. And following the data.

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"One Line Robert"

This goes against what Cervelo, Cannondale, and Specialized are saying. I'm not sure I believe Trek.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

You missed a few words there.

most of them have a agenda and some are more effective.

Bruh. We already knew how you'd feel.

I've never met someone more excited to part with money they don't have for unproven technology they've never even used.

That's without getting into how Trek has a history of being the most transparent and thorough manufacturer when it comes to testing protocol within their white papers.

Also consider what they have to gain from bucking the trend? Er nothing. And it's not like they don't have money to chase disc brakes.

They're taking a stance for seemingly data driven reasons. I dig it.

As pubes said, the plot thickens.

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"One Line Robert"

There is something to be said for being one of the most well known companies in bikes and deciding not to implement disc brakes.

Enough with saying I'm excited to part with money. I guess I'll have to repeat myself over and over.

I only want to ride what is the fastest system. If that's disc brakes, great. If that's rim brakes, great.

I love Cervelo bikes so I was going to want the P5-X no matter if it had disc brakes or rim brakes.

We just need to step back, wait and see what Specialized and Cannondale do, and see where this goes. I've never met so many people who are so adamantly against a new direction for bicycles.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

"We're able to integrate a rim brake caliper into the shapes of a frame far better than disc brakes. So, for aerodynamics, a rim brake comes out ahead every time."

Not a big surprise to me...just look at a new Madone and tell me it would be just as aero if it had to accommodate hub mounted discs. Not a chance.

BTW, I don't think the data from Specialized really says what you think it says...even with a 2nd whack at the overall design, the hub disc version of the Venge ViAS is still slower than the original. The Cannondale data basically just shows that if you put a blob in front of a shape designed for aerodynamics, that you can make things worse. And, as far as Cervelo goes...despite their new Tri bike being drastically non-UCI compliant, it's still no faster than the more (only fork depth the exception) UCI-compliant design which is a few years older. Not a lot of "there" there...

I guess this means we probably won't be seeing a hub-disc version of the Speed Concept in the near future ;-)

Edit: BTW, I'd love to discuss with Mr. Ahlberg how to get the same type of "modulation" and feel with his rim-disk offerings. It's not that difficult :-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I'm aware that the 2nd version of the Venge is slightly slower. I'm still holding out hope that one of the manufacturers will show us something amazing. There's nothing wrong with thinking that way.

It's still super early to tell and shouting that disc brakes are stupid is a bit ridiculous in my opinion.

We shall see though.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Given Trek's history as being the original benchmark for making great triathlon bikes (in the past 5 or 6 years) I'll trust this because it's in line with what I have always believed to be true. Confirmation bias is my friend.

how fast is it, picking yourself off the pavement, after slamming into a car in the rain, with rubber brake pads taking two epochs to shed water?

Even if Trek is right about them being heavy and slow (maybe Trek just haven't figured out how to do it properly and are "sour grapes") in my book at least, the effectiveness of discs make them a no brainer.

Hey, have they ever figured out how much time you lose on a rim brake bike in the rain, slowing for a corner? On a disc equipped bike you can brake so much later than you pick up valuable seconds that surely compensate for any alleged penalty from aero and weight (the alleged aero and weight penalty is pretty small, to be sure)

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

When wind tunnel testing (but yes we're still waiting for independent testing) shows there is a benefit for discs, that's not marketing. Remember, the "e" on Cervelo head tubes stands for "engineering" according to Gerard. I like engineering. Certainly beats the styling/marketing of the Pinarello wet noodle looking fork, for example.

I prefer the Trek Kamm tube profiles. That was engineering at least. Their current statement smacks of "lets make this our point of difference, and save all the R&D money, so we can sell to those cyclists that like pretty over better"

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

So, then why did you list it as being the opposite of what Trek says? It's not.

The opinions expressed in that video match pretty well with my own. The intended use drives the technology choices. That's the reason there are such differences in bike technology across the board anyway...braking systems are no different.

BTW, 600-800g is a fairly hefty weight increase for hub-discs over rim-discs. That's something that hasn't been talked about much in these discussion on ST. Yeah, weight isn't as big of a performance drive as aerodynamics for "go fast" bikes, but it still matters...especially when you're talking that level of mass increase.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I was referencing a post from Cam Piper at Specialized.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

FWIW, Trek was one of the last to embrace discs on mountain bikes as well, taking half measures like front disc, rear rim brake.

"Given Trek's history as being the original benchmark for making great triathlon bikes (in the past 5 or 6 years) I'll trust this because it's in line with what I have always believed to be true."

speed concepts are great bikes. they are also notoriously less user friendly than standard bikes with standard brakes, standard stems, etc. hard to adjust. hard to change your position, etc.

so, if you're comparing a disc madone to a rim madone, okay. point taken. if you're comparing a disc speed concept to a rim speed concept, there's more to the calculus.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I think you might need to rethink some of your equipment choices if your rain braking performance is that bad with rim-discs.

Oh, and the "braking later" meme is such a red herring...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I'm not following what you're trying to convey here...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

This thread is just going to go the same as the other ones. Let met go ahead and summarize it.

Tom A. will use his terms "rim-discs and hub-discs" which no one else uses, there are those of us who are patient and will wait for engineering teams to deliver, and the entire thread will fall apart with the disc haters shouting the most.

Let me go get my popcorn.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

"I'm not following what you're trying to convey here..."

do you own a speed concept?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Which was?

BTW, don't forget that the ViAS data was with 140mm diameter rotors, IIRC...the drag will be worse with the more reasonable 160mm size for road bike (UCI has standardized on 160mm for their trials for a reason)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...cam%20piper#p6060531

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ost=6061611#p6061611

From Cam Piper:

It's exciting seeing a number of manufacturers releasing disc brake wheel sets and now discs.

I'd like to echo what Damon said with regards to testing and trends that we have seen in the tunnel as well - which are very similar.

People see a disc brake bike and focus in on the visual appearance of a rotor. What is often neglected is what comprises a rim brake system - brake shoes, brake pads, the caliper itself, cable housing, and other small parts. Like Damon mentioned, those pieces add drag to the overall system of the bike. Typical mounting points for a rim brake bike can be optimized on a disc brake bike - similar to how people have mentioned a rim can be optimized without a brake track. It's important to look at the bike as a system - technical limits are pushed with that in mind. Preconceived notions of how things might perform aerodynamically are some of the most exciting things to challenge and test in the tunnel - often times you are surprised and learn a lot! You never know until you try things.

But...let me go get my popcorn first while you tell him he's wrong.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

No, but I'm somewhat familiar with them...however, I'm not seeing how that's relevant to the statement I was asking about.

The statement of yours above that I highlighted appears to be saying that comparing one Madone against another is OK, but that's not OK to do for a Speed Concept. What I'm not understanding is that if you're doing an "apples to apples" comparison of the bikes, then what does it matter how easy the Speed Concept is to work on or adjust as to other bikes? You're not comparing it to other bikes...

Am I misunderstanding what you wrote?

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/