My current CP30 on the trainer is the same as in a 10 mile TT, 290ish w.

I think it is more mental and the type of trainer you have. The Kinetics Road machine simulates the road feel (6lb flywheel) so for me it is a better trainer to conduct tests on. Also, I ride it daily and have 20,000 miles on it, so I am used to the feel of the trainer as compared to the road.

I thought you lived in California? Why on earch would you ride on a trainer if you can ride outside?

There is more energy to draw from out in nature than there is in the static environment of your house/garage/basement.

I draw energy from the Zeppelin posters in my garage man!

"I thought you lived in California? Why on earch would you ride on a trainer if you can ride outside? "

A: Structured intervals, I can ride at set power levels without grade, wind, traffic, etc. - I race TT.

I've noticed the same thing. My natural cadence on the trainer is 89, and have to really concentrate to stay at my road cadence of 95. I know also my power is much lower as the ride is much harder. The gear I am in most of the time is rather embarrassing on the trainer.... I use a Volare Elite, and it is rather tough.

In regards to why the trainer for Californians, I use one as sometimes I just don't want to go outside. The real hard part about the trainer is staying on it when you don't want too.

Tilden

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"...it should be swim, bike, run, cage fight." - el fuser
"I noticed that I am in your sig line! Wow! That's s first for me. Thanks." - Fleck

How about this?:

There are 2 main reasons why typically riding on a trainer feels (and is) harder than riding outdoors:

(1) Heat load--when one rides outdoors, typically your body has no problem with excess heat, as it is siphoned off by the cooler air flowing around you at 20+ mph. Indoors, there is no way to easily do this, unless you set up an army of industrial fans around you. Excess heat absolutely affects the body's work and efficiency as it has to shunt blood to different places (a lot more goes to the skin for cooling needs) and many of those places are not working muscles.

(2) Momentum: unlike riding outside on flat (or rolling) surfaces, when you ride on typical trainer, the mass and momentum of you, your bike, and front wheel play no part in your motion. So if you stop pedalling or reduce pedalling force even slightly or even momentarily, the trainer unit (and rear wheel) immediately begins slowing down (and will quickly come to a stop if you let it).

And, unlike riding outside, when you ride a trainer you must constantly pedal and apply force throughout the entire pedal stroke, including the top and bottom of the stroke (where a lot of us typically slack off on the outside on the flats). This is because the only moving parts on a typical trainer is the bike's drivetrain, the rear wheel, the trainer's small flywheel weight, and the trainer's resistance device. If you actually had a spinning weight on a trainer to simulate the true momentum your body and moving bike represents outdoors, that weight would have to be quite massive or would have to be geared to spin at an extraordinary speed.

One thing about this lack of momentum on a trainer that is 'good' (from a training perspective) is that it somewhat simulates some aspects of hill riding, if getting on real hills outdoors is not easy for you. But if you wanted to slightly make the trainer ride a little more like a bike on the flats, try this: if you have a trainer with an adjustable resistance unit (if not, you are out of luck here), set the resistance to the minimum you can, then ride with the biggest appropriate gear you can (this allows the rear wheel to develop the most rotational speed and momentum), and put the heaviest rear wheel/tire combo you have on the bike.

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Where would you want to swim ?

if this were true, then why, when studies are conducted (indoors in a lab), using instrumented force pedals and iEMG analysis, do they show that mainly you just push down (and hardly pull up). with better cyclists (elite) pulling up less than the regional level cyclists (who pulled up more)?

ric

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http://www.cyclecoach.com

Whilst, i don't have a good answer for the differences that *may* occur between indoors and out, i'd like to add, that not everyone has this issue. I find (with the riders i coach and consult with) that it's about evenly (roughly 50%) split between those who can generate the same power indoors and out, and those who generate more outdoors.

On a personal level, my TTpower is significantly higher *indoors*, but my all-out 30-secs efforts are higher outdoors than in.

still, i'd much rather ride outdoors every day, if only it was always sunny and warm!

ric

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http://www.cyclecoach.com

What I was trying to say, is that you may end up having to pedal more efficiently indoors. Or, perhaps more accurately, you may pedal exactly the same way in both cases (indoors and out), but indoors the pedals/cranks/drivetrain/rear wheel slows down quite a bit more during the typically "dead" parts of the pedal stroke. This means the indoor rider must apply more force/work during the "active" part of the pedal stroke than the outdoor rider, which translates into harder overall pedalling indoors.

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Where would you want to swim ?

I do live in CA. But... sometimes when I only need to do a few short intervals, with a total workout time of 45 mins, AND it's ~48 degrees out, it's easier to just toss on the shorts and pop onto the trainer than to bundle up.

Other reasons include darkness and a lack of a steady 4 minute long section of road where I can do a fast interval -- I usually have to choose between something steep, or with too many tight turns which require some coasting for a moment. Lower intensity/speed intervals are no problem, though, with 15-20 min stretches without worry. The cutoff seems to be about 250w... anything higher means hill or indoors.

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Too f@ckin depressed from various injuries to care about having a signature line.

Sponsored by Blue Shield PPO.

Hi Aztec,
You've received some good advice and comments already. If you want to read some of the studies, google on "Inertial Load cycling" or some variation thereof and you should find some reports.

It IS a real effect - one of the biggest being that peak torque (or simply force) is higher for the same power with a higher inertial load. Inertial loading on the road varies greatly - perhaps 10:1 or even greater IIRC.

The Cycleops has a fairly steep resistance curve - I have one and definitely noticed that. I found it great for simulating hil-climbing (low inertial load case) but not for 'regular' riding. As the curve isn't adjustable - thus allowing you to use a lower resistance setting and higher gear --- I think you're stuck re road feel. Or just pretend you're climbing a decent grade and the Cycleops should feel fine!

For 2-5min intervals and a decent rest interval, cooling shouldn't be an issue if you have a fan pointing at you. I find I get too cold during say 5x5min/5RI and sometimes turn the fan away during the RI. Now for 2x20 or 1x40 or 1x90 tempo --- I find I can't sustain quite as much indoors - say 3-5% lower. And I attribute that simply to inadequate cooling.

There's no magic though - ultimately watts are watts and you have to achieve the same level indoors to have the same training effect.

rmur

Someone I respect greatly in this field recently told me it has to do with momentum (can't recall the details), which changes the way in which you have to pedal.



I think they're referencing what's known as being "on top of the gear", inertia and rolling resistance-wise. That's a common trap that triathletes fall into. By that, I mean that a cyclist will tend to find the gear that let's them pedal at a just-slightly easier effort (oftentimes, the change may only be about 5 watts less effort) rather than to use a ratio in which you pedal "in the middle of the gear", and which allows you to focus on your complete pedal stroke, from top dead-center all the way through bottom dead-center and back up again.

A stationary trainer, not being captive to as much of a "top of the gear" shenanigan by a cyclist, can force the cyclist to expend that 5 watts or so in a subtle attempt to sharpen the pedal stroke. This is especially so when a cyclist uses a Computrainer or the like.

But then again, it could be magic! ;-)

Tony

I live in Southern California too, and this is a picture of my back deck about a week ago. We are expecting another foot in the next 24 hours.

Now this is making a whole lot more sense than the usual perfunctory thoughts on the matter!

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Too f@ckin depressed from various injuries to care about having a signature line.

Sponsored by Blue Shield PPO.

What's the elevation at your house, Joe?

According to my Forerunner 201, it's shown as low as 5,260 and as high as 5,315. Basically I'm a mile high. Are you at altitude too?

hey we're learning slowly but surely. I have at least one complete report with the gory inertial loading details if you're interested. I'll admit I had to read it twice before I really caught it but it was quite interesting.

rmur