Well, wouldnt one have to train for shorter events for that to happen?
Endurance coach | Physiotherapist (primary care) | Bikefitter | Swede
Endurance coach | Physiotherapist (primary care) | Bikefitter | Swede
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Re: TrainerRoad New FTP test [Andrew Coggan]
[ In reply to ]
Re: TrainerRoad New FTP test [mortysct]
[ In reply to ]
Yeah, like training to perform well on the ramp test.
(Much like people will crush their first 20 min effort, sorta/kinda/maybe fake their way through a second, then down the road find that their FTP isn't really increasing.)
(Much like people will crush their first 20 min effort, sorta/kinda/maybe fake their way through a second, then down the road find that their FTP isn't really increasing.)
Re: TrainerRoad New FTP test [Nate Pearson]
[ In reply to ]
Nate Pearson wrote:
DFW_Tri wrote:
But it would also help to hear from the creator as to why they think it is accurate.I can answer that :-D.
We're really lucky now that we're at a large enough scale that we can test things with our users fairly quickly.
With our new Ramp Test we've ran through 900 riders so far. We've got a FB group called "TrainerRoad Beta Group" where people are responding to the test.
Anecdotally, the response has been hugely positive (and you can read people's responses in that group). The goal is to put them at the right training levels as they start a TrainerRoad plan.
People usually fall into the following buckets:
1) This test is bang on what either my 8/20 minute test results were or where I've self adjusted to
This is the vast majority of riders
2) This test produced an FTP higher than what I'm training at...this can't be right...this test overestimates....oh wait, I just did 90 minutes of over unders at this new FTP...boy that was hard...okay so this is what real training feels like?...okay so this test is good.
I really like these responses because I think these people didn't pace well during the 8/20 minute tests and they've entered a whole new level of HTFU.
3) Your test underestimated my FTP. I've been training at X FTP and I know that's my FTP.
I've looked at each one of these people's workouts personally. So far every single one of them who trains at their "higher" FTP either turns down every workout or can't make it through 10 minutes of sweet spot without two back pedal breaks. I suspect in this situation it's a bit EGO of wanting that higher FTP (I've been there too!).
4) I did 90 minutes of sweet spot training at 8pm with my new FTP and it felt great. Then I woke up at 5am, didn't eat breakfast and tried to do 90 minutes over unders and I couldn't make it past 45 minutes. Is my FTP too high?
This is a general bucket of external stressors, workout spacing and nutrition. If you're on a keto diet anything glycolytic is going to hurt more than normal. If you try to do highly glycolytic workouts with low glycogen stores it's going to hurt. If you put two harder workouts close together it's going to hurt. If you're up with a sick kid half the night your next workout will be much more difficult than if you didn't. This makes me think that we can improve education to inform riders how to set themselves up for success on every workout.
For the data side of it we're seeing if we can quantify the improvement. There are many external variables so it might be hard but we're going to do our best to do that.
If you have any other questions let me know.
I *think* I fall into the 3rd category. I did a 20minute test at the end of December and then did a few weeks of SSB2 where 4x10 @ Threshold and 6x15 @ SST were completed no probs.
Retested with the ramp test on Sunday and got a score -14w when I was expecting an increase.
Decided to ignore it and did Baird +6 this evening at my old number and got through okay.
My hunch is fatigue from Saturday knocked the edge off of my effort. There was no fight either- just hit a brick wall two minutes short of my expected result.
So whilst the ability to fit it in without disrupting training maybe a good USP- perhaps it still needs a bit of respect?
Could have been a bit of what AC said a couple of posts ago too- I NAILED that 20 min test in December so perhaps over egged my FTP pudding!!
Re: TrainerRoad New FTP test [Crosshair]
[ In reply to ]
Alternatively, your resistance to fatigue during supra-FTP exercise is a bit lower than average/than is assumed in either test.
If so, the result is that both results underestimate your actual FTP, but the ramp test more than a 20 min effort simply because the actual (uncorrected) power achieved is more dependent on this ability.
The opposite would be true in someone with above-average fatigue resistance above FTP, i.e., a shorter (e.g., 8 min) or ramp test will tend to overestimate FTP more than a longer (i.e., 20 min) effort.
If so, the result is that both results underestimate your actual FTP, but the ramp test more than a 20 min effort simply because the actual (uncorrected) power achieved is more dependent on this ability.
The opposite would be true in someone with above-average fatigue resistance above FTP, i.e., a shorter (e.g., 8 min) or ramp test will tend to overestimate FTP more than a longer (i.e., 20 min) effort.
Re: TrainerRoad New FTP test [Andrew Coggan]
[ In reply to ]
Andrew Coggan wrote:
(Prediction: a year or so from now, there will be a lot of people scratching their heads, trying to figure out why their performance in triathlons hasn't improved even though their ramp test results have.)I don't agree with this comment.
If someone does a ramp test, then trains for 26 weeks following a structured, well thought out training plan, their triathlon performance will improve.
The fact that they measured themselves with a ramp test doesn't influence their training.
CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast
Re: TrainerRoad New FTP test [Nate Pearson]
[ In reply to ]
Nate Pearson wrote:
If someone does a ramp test, then trains for 26 weeks following a structured, well thought out training plan, their triathlon performance
The fact that they measured themselves with a ramp test
Last edited by:
Andrew Coggan: Feb 8, 18 7:17
Re: TrainerRoad New FTP test [Andrew Coggan]
[ In reply to ]
Andrew Coggan wrote:
Nate Pearson wrote:
If someone does a ramp test, then trains for 26 weeks following a structured, well thought out training plan, their triathlon performance
The fact that they measured themselves with a ramp test
haha, yes, nothing is absolute.
Are you agreeing with me (including your edits)? Or maybe I'm missing something.
Thanks for the reply.
CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast
Re: TrainerRoad New FTP test [Nate Pearson]
[ In reply to ]
Nate Pearson wrote:
Andrew Coggan wrote:
Nate Pearson wrote:
If someone does a ramp test, then trains for 26 weeks following a structured, well thought out training plan, their triathlon performance
The fact that they measured themselves with a ramp test
haha, yes, nothing is absolute.
Are you agreeing with me (including your edits)? Or maybe I'm missing something.
Thanks for the reply.
I surmise the point he is making is that although ramp test performance improves, longer durations as in a triathlon, particularly Ironman distance, may not necessarily improve, and it would be sensible to do longer duration tests rather than rely on the ramp tests.
Also one should bear in mind the bike section comes after a swim and one has to run after the bike, so an improved bike ramp test isn't really testing for the performance that will be required on race day.
That's my opinion anyway.
It's also my opinion that this latest fashion and fad for shorter duration tests and complicated tests which avoid testing over longer durations, nearer 50 to 60 minutes are
particularly misguided for triathletes.
If you do tests over shorter durations you are likely to improve that area of the power duration curve, but that does not guarantee an improvement at the other end of the curve.
Re: TrainerRoad New FTP test wis TR] [Andrew Coggan]
[ In reply to ]
Took the test it came about 10-20W below various 15-20 min max power assessments over the past 18 months (~10-15W over indoor workouts and ~15-20 over outside climbing rides [for some reason I can't achieve the same outputs on flats]) but to be honest I quit slightly too early and probably had another 45sec-60sec step up in me.
By way of background, I have a very flat power profile with a high FTP/weight but weak top end.
What I liked about the ramp up test:
- Easily repeatable without being too taxing
- No "preparation" or tapering
- Mentally easier (at least for me)
- Doesn't seem to be completely off
- Convenient and short. Worst case it's a good warm up
Challenges:
- When performed in Erg mode, that test requires to be lazer focused; easing up a couple of seconds won't affect the results of an 8 min or longer test that much while easing up 2 seconds on Erg mode increases the resistance such that it makes it way too hard to come back up to speed and try to push through another min
- I've been doing long endurance/sweet spot base rides + strength over the past few moths. I feel that the result would probably be an accurate basis for workouts involving some VO2 and hard efforts when I start doing them again however I feel it would make my sweet spot and endurance workouts too easy as with a 10-15W higher threshold they feel to be at the right level (i.e. no failure, sustainable, moderately challenging without being too taxing)
By way of background, I have a very flat power profile with a high FTP/weight but weak top end.
What I liked about the ramp up test:
- Easily repeatable without being too taxing
- No "preparation" or tapering
- Mentally easier (at least for me)
- Doesn't seem to be completely off
- Convenient and short. Worst case it's a good warm up
Challenges:
- When performed in Erg mode, that test requires to be lazer focused; easing up a couple of seconds won't affect the results of an 8 min or longer test that much while easing up 2 seconds on Erg mode increases the resistance such that it makes it way too hard to come back up to speed and try to push through another min
- I've been doing long endurance/sweet spot base rides + strength over the past few moths. I feel that the result would probably be an accurate basis for workouts involving some VO2 and hard efforts when I start doing them again however I feel it would make my sweet spot and endurance workouts too easy as with a 10-15W higher threshold they feel to be at the right level (i.e. no failure, sustainable, moderately challenging without being too taxing)
Re: TrainerRoad New FTP test [Trev]
[ In reply to ]
That’s where I disagree. If you do a test (any test) and then do a triathlon plan, then do another test, you should be a faster triathlete AND perform better on the test.
What it sounds like both you and Dr. Coggan are arguing is that people will train to maximize their test results rather than the discipline they are trying to be fast in.
I also want to say that our Ramp test is not 100% perfect and it will not be the panacea for all riders. But based on the data it puts a vast majority of people into a better starting point for a TrainerRoad training plan compared to the 8 or 20 minute test.
CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast
What it sounds like both you and Dr. Coggan are arguing is that people will train to maximize their test results rather than the discipline they are trying to be fast in.
I also want to say that our Ramp test is not 100% perfect and it will not be the panacea for all riders. But based on the data it puts a vast majority of people into a better starting point for a TrainerRoad training plan compared to the 8 or 20 minute test.
CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast
Re: TrainerRoad New FTP test [Nate Pearson]
[ In reply to ]
Nate Pearson wrote:
That’s where I disagree. If you do a test (any test) and then do a triathlon plan, then do another test, you should be a faster triathlete AND perform better on the test. What it sounds like both you and Dr. Coggan are arguing is that people will train to maximize their test results rather than the discipline they are trying to be fast in.
I also want to say that our Ramp test is not 100% perfect and it will not be the panacea for all riders. But based on the data it puts a vast majority of people into a better starting point for a TrainerRoad training plan compared to the 8 or 20 minute test.
I don't speak for Dr Coggan, but no, I'm not saying that. I am saying that the test results, regardless of the actual training done, only reflect the ability of the subject to perform the tests. An improvement in the tests does not guarantee an improvement over the durations the training was designed to improve. You might see an improvement in the tests, but little or no improvement over the race duration and in a race environment.
An improvement at one end of the power duration curve does not guarantee an improvement at the other end of the curve.
Some argue, that improvements over shorter durations, anaerobic durations, even suppress performance over longer durations.
Re: TrainerRoad New FTP test [Trev]
[ In reply to ]
I don’t think you take the test, regardless which one, to just get better at the test. You do the test, atleast within trainerroad, to get your zones for the plan you choose. I don’t think you can argue what trainerroad is doing doesn’t work. If you’ve done the plans you know they work. Of course it’s not exactly perfect for everyone but it’s more than adequate IMHO.
Re: TrainerRoad New FTP test [Nate Pearson]
[ In reply to ]
I did the test and my FTP result was in line with what I felt it might be. Background: I'm 60, been doing long course triathlons for more than a decade but did very little riding last year (due to injuries and other commitments). I've previously used a 20 minute test. Leading up to this current test I got in ~t 8 rides on the trainer, all 1 hour or less and all moderate efforts. I manually set my FTP to 200 and was getting through the TR workouts without emptying my tank.
Did the Ramp test and it came back with an estimated FTP of 209. For reference, my highest FTP was back in 2010 where I was at 255 (at 72kg). I trained a lot in 2010 and was 10lbs lighter. I hoping with some consistent training I can get my FTP to 225-230 and drop 10lbs.
Do want to say I appreciate everyone contributing to this discussion. Dr. Coogan's feedback is always enlightening. And even though I've done the shorter tests to estimate my FTP, I agree with Dr. Coogan's '7 Deadly Sins.' Just my 2 cents.
Did the Ramp test and it came back with an estimated FTP of 209. For reference, my highest FTP was back in 2010 where I was at 255 (at 72kg). I trained a lot in 2010 and was 10lbs lighter. I hoping with some consistent training I can get my FTP to 225-230 and drop 10lbs.
Do want to say I appreciate everyone contributing to this discussion. Dr. Coogan's feedback is always enlightening. And even though I've done the shorter tests to estimate my FTP, I agree with Dr. Coogan's '7 Deadly Sins.' Just my 2 cents.
Re: TrainerRoad New FTP test [AdamL2424]
[ In reply to ]
AdamL2424 wrote:
I don’t think you take the test, regardless which one, to just get better at the test. You do the test, atleast within trainerroad, to get your zones for the plan you choose. I don’t think you can argue what trainerroad is doing doesn’t work. If you’ve done the plans you know they work. Of course it’s not exactly perfect for everyone but it’s more than adequate IMHO.This is how I see it. It is to establish your training zones in the TR program. Each plan is aimed at improving your fitness for the specific goal you have set.
I only have one question or concern. How does it help establish your goal output for a given race? For example, 90% of that tested number for an Olympic race or 80% for a half?
Re: TrainerRoad New FTP test [svennn]
[ In reply to ]
svennn wrote:
I only have one question or concern. How does it help establish your goal output for a given race? For example, 90% of that tested number for an Olympic race or 80% for a half?That's a bit of a complex topic and varies based on your experience, race speed (i.e. how long you're actually going to be spending on the bike) and relative strengths in swimming, cycling and running. There's plenty of information out there if you Google it, but I think that's why the TR guys don't suggest a set intensity for race day.
Re: TrainerRoad New FTP test [Andrew Coggan]
[ In reply to ]
Andrew Coggan wrote:
(Prediction: a year or so from now, there will be a lot of people scratching their heads, trying to figure out why their performance in triathlons hasn't improved even though their ramp test results have.)
Re: TrainerRoad New FTP test [zender]
[ In reply to ]
Speaking of BSX. I received this in an email. They've decided to let it go.
We’re writing to you as a valued customer and owner of a BSXinsight device.
It’s hard to believe that the second generation of BSXinsight devices are already two years old. During that time we’ve been able to accomplish so much together. But as with all consumer electronic devices, the cost and complexity of continuing to ship and maintain a technology as it matures through its product life cycle keeps increasing. As a result, we have made the difficult decision to stop marketing and producing the BSXinsight effective as of the date of this letter. This includes the following BSXinsight models: XM, XC, XR, XM2, XC2 and XR2.
While the company will continue to maintain servers and offer email technical support for one year, the product will not be enhanced or improved in any way including adding support for new operating systems and platforms. All valid warranty claims will continue to be honored as per the manufacturer warranty agreement.
We understand that for many of you, the BSXinsight has become an integral part of your training and race preparation. BSXinsight will continue to represent a transformative technology, for the first time ever bringing lactate threshold training technology out of the lab and into your own living room.
It has been our pleasure helping you to achieve each of your own personal records. For some, those were private personal bests and others they were Olympic medals - to us each were equally thrilling.
As part of the end of life process, we have decided to release the code of our BSXinsight Garmin Connect IQ app to the open source community. This can be found at https://github.com/bsx-opensource/insight-app. Additionally, we will be publishing an updated app to the Connect IQ store with SmO2 start/stop functionality and FIT file support enabled from supported Garmin products.
While this has been a difficult decision for each team member, we view product end of life as a part of the product life cycle that drives new technology and innovation. Our team continues to be passionately focused on developing revolutionary technologies that improve lives and individual well-being. As such, the end of this chapter in our company's story marks the beginning of a new exciting one that we hope you will join in with us.
So that was a couple hundred dollars down the drain. It never functioned as it was sold in the initial kickstarter.
g augustine
We’re writing to you as a valued customer and owner of a BSXinsight device.
It’s hard to believe that the second generation of BSXinsight devices are already two years old. During that time we’ve been able to accomplish so much together. But as with all consumer electronic devices, the cost and complexity of continuing to ship and maintain a technology as it matures through its product life cycle keeps increasing. As a result, we have made the difficult decision to stop marketing and producing the BSXinsight effective as of the date of this letter. This includes the following BSXinsight models: XM, XC, XR, XM2, XC2 and XR2.
While the company will continue to maintain servers and offer email technical support for one year, the product will not be enhanced or improved in any way including adding support for new operating systems and platforms. All valid warranty claims will continue to be honored as per the manufacturer warranty agreement.
We understand that for many of you, the BSXinsight has become an integral part of your training and race preparation. BSXinsight will continue to represent a transformative technology, for the first time ever bringing lactate threshold training technology out of the lab and into your own living room.
It has been our pleasure helping you to achieve each of your own personal records. For some, those were private personal bests and others they were Olympic medals - to us each were equally thrilling.
As part of the end of life process, we have decided to release the code of our BSXinsight Garmin Connect IQ app to the open source community. This can be found at https://github.com/bsx-opensource/insight-app. Additionally, we will be publishing an updated app to the Connect IQ store with SmO2 start/stop functionality and FIT file support enabled from supported Garmin products.
While this has been a difficult decision for each team member, we view product end of life as a part of the product life cycle that drives new technology and innovation. Our team continues to be passionately focused on developing revolutionary technologies that improve lives and individual well-being. As such, the end of this chapter in our company's story marks the beginning of a new exciting one that we hope you will join in with us.
So that was a couple hundred dollars down the drain. It never functioned as it was sold in the initial kickstarter.
g augustine
Re: TrainerRoad New FTP test [gaaugustine]
[ In reply to ]
Re: TrainerRoad New FTP test [Trev]
[ In reply to ]
Trev wrote:
Some argue, that improvements over shorter durations, anaerobic durations, even suppress performance over longer durations.
Yes. In fact, it is not uncommon to see an increase in 20 minute power yet see a decline over longer durations.
Armando Mastracci, Founder of Xert, an advanced data analytics and training platform. Blog, Podcasts
Re: TrainerRoad New FTP test [srshaw]
[ In reply to ]
srshaw wrote:
I will say I much prefer the new test. The 20 min test was a nightmare for me, so much so I usually just estimated it. I'm happy to the the new test regularly.i haven't taken the test yet, but i felt the same as you...i hate that 20 min test. hate is not a strong enough word.
i'm starting back up on trainerroad next week and that will be the first workout i complete.
Re: TrainerRoad New FTP test [Andrew Coggan]
[ In reply to ]
Would you also suggest a warm up protocol before this ramp test like any other test? TR says no other warm up needed, but I find that hard to believe.
Re: TrainerRoad New FTP test [chrishutch84]
[ In reply to ]
I do Clyde before the ramp test as a 20 minute warm up.
Re: TrainerRoad New FTP test [chrishutch84]
[ In reply to ]
chrishutch84 wrote:
Would you also suggest a warm up protocol before this ramp test like any other test? TR says no other warm up needed, but I find that hard to believe.There is a warm up built into it. If you want to add more of a warm up you can, just keep it consistent between tests. If you find the workouts hard to achieve after your warm up + ramp test results you should manually adjust your FTP to be lower.
CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast
Re: TrainerRoad New FTP test [Nate Pearson]
[ In reply to ]
I'm too lazy to read through this whole post, but I have a question with regards to TT position and ramp test:
Are you guys doing it in the TT postion to get your TT FTP? and then separately on say your road bike to get your road position FTP?
I haven't done an FTP in a long time, and in preparing for Santa Cruz 70.3 I want to get my numbers, but should I be doing it in the TT position?
Are you guys doing it in the TT postion to get your TT FTP? and then separately on say your road bike to get your road position FTP?
I haven't done an FTP in a long time, and in preparing for Santa Cruz 70.3 I want to get my numbers, but should I be doing it in the TT position?
TulkasTri wrote:
I'm too lazy to read through this whole post, but I have a question with regards to TT position and ramp test: Are you guys doing it in the TT postion to get your TT FTP? and then separately on say your road bike to get your road position FTP?
I haven't done an FTP in a long time, and in preparing for Santa Cruz 70.3 I want to get my numbers, but should I be doing it in the TT position?
The guys discussed this quite in depth in the last podcast. They are testing both their road bike and TT bikes via ramp test to see what (if any) differences there are.
Why wouldn't you do the FTP test in the position you are going to race in? Meaning: on the TT, use your position. Otherwise, the numbers could be different -- and if you use those (different) numbers for your pacing, either you will be too hard or too easy on the ride.