That is really sad...

BUT...if this guy could not swim...why did he get in the water? I am not sure what the system in Canada will do, but I know that if that happened in the US (again), the race would be sue'ed out of existance.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

[reply]That is really sad...

BUT...if this guy could not swim...why did he get in the water? I am not sure what the system in Canada will do, but I know that if that happened in the US (again), the race would be sue'ed out of existance.[/reply]

I don't know what the circumstances were that led to the drowning. It could have been a medical condition as opposed to not knowing how to swim. The weather was warm and sunny and the water was calm so I can't see weather being a factor.

I'm not a legal expert but I think the burden of proof is tougher here than in the U.S.A. The Guelph triathlon is part of a long-running series put on by Trisport Promotions which is owned by Mitch and Janet Fraser whom I believe are somehow related to Gord Fraser of IMNA. I've competed in 27 Trisport events over the past 4 years and can attest that they are well organized events and think that negligence would be hard to prove.

Dan

... sad to hear... but, it does proves one more thing...

the statistical factor indicating that the most dangerous portion of the race (in terms of probability of death) is the swim. More specifically, the start of the swim.

FWIW Joe Moya

i've also done many of the trisport races over the years (including the guelph race) and agree that they are always meticulously run. this is not a backyard triathlon or a start-up organization, they have been around for a long time and know what they're doing.

this is really a very tragic occurance. i'm very interested in the details surrounding this story. please post if you hear anything else.

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"I'm happy when life's good,
and when it's bad I cry.
I've got values but I don't know how or why."
- The Who

... what little I have read indicates it took sometime to find the athlete...

You would think that a brightly colored cap would have helped to find the person? I'm sure a black wetsuit didn'' help the search... but still, I would be curious about the details. At least a lesson could be learned and more safety precaustions could be introduced into the swim start.

FWIW Joe Moya

Re: "i'm sure a black wetsuit didn't help the search"

was he wearing one? i didn't think you could even sink with a wetsuit on. i know a person could still drown in one (although i think it would be much less likely as opposed to without one) but would they actually go under the surface enough that they couldn't be readily seen?

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"I'm happy when life's good,
and when it's bad I cry.
I've got values but I don't know how or why."
- The Who

... Makes you think that waves should be determined by swim experience instead of age. Perhaps, this could solve a few safety issues but may not be a popular approach from a competitive standpoint.

FWIW Joe Moya

We obviously don't have all the facts, so what I'm about to say is merely advisory, and should not be taken as applying to this case, unless the ultimate facts warrant the comparison.

When I did my first triathlon I had to have my swimming proficiency CERTIFIED for the distance. It was a tri up on the Jersey coast about 1982 or so. The problem here is that guys, in particular guys, think they can do almost anything. While I admit I admire that attitude in most cases, when it comes to swimming a substantial amount of preparation is called for. I certainly hope this fellow did not enter this race without sufficient preparation, including being given the advice to start in the back and to the outside. (NB: I suffer from claustraphobia, and know the meaning of a panic attack in the water. I'm much faster in the pool by myself as a consequence, except the time the lights went out in the pool....Have you ever heard a blood-curdling scream from a middle-aged male? Not pretty!)

Anyway, this is a good post because it is an opportunity for all of us with experience to be reminded to HELP our newbie friends get through their first race.

My condolences to his family. So young...and it shouldn't have happened, probably.

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

gord fraser is the cyclist who rides for health net. you're thinking of graham fraser. not sure about the relation even so.

Wayde Williams and he was doing a sprint distance. I doubt he couldn't swim but he may have panicked in the confusion of the start. Just shows that you should be more than able to swim the full distance.

The swim start in a sprint race is often an order of magnitude worse than, say, an IM start where the folks are looking at 10+ hours to the end. My worst experience in the swim was a sprint race, in fact. Nothing worse than 10,000 pounds of meat and muscle moving at warp speed and trying to occupy the same space! I recall a fellow who was at least 6'4" and about 250 lbs swimming over the top of me after I slowed for the guy in front of me. As I was trying to retrieve my goggles, my breath, and my sanity, I observed him doing likewise to several other swimmers. However, while breast stroking for a minute afterwards I noticed he finally met his commupance when another racer started whaling on him unmercifully for doing the same thing to him. Not the recommended approach, but sometimes it's a street fight in that water!!! No wonder women want their own waves. I want my own wave.... :),

Now, there's a platform idea (or, ideal)! Individual waves. "Starting in 1,799th place [at 2:45 a.m.] is Record9Ti, wearing a lovely chartreause tri suit by Louis Guarneau". :),

Or, maybe not....

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

[reply]Now, there's a platform idea (or, ideal)! Individual waves. "Starting in 1,799th place [at 2:45 a.m.] is Record9Ti, wearing a lovely chartreause tri suit by Louis Guarneau". :),
[/reply]

There's a triathlon in Orangeville, ON, CAN (www.multisportcanada.com) that uses this format. Athletes leave one at a time every 3 or 5 seconds. I did the race last year and it was a lot calmer water throughout the swim.

I've also found the sprint swim starts to be a lot more rough than long course races even though the long course races had mass starts. It still surprises me that so many people sprint the first 50 meters of the swim then have the inevitable slow-down/shortness of breath/muscle cramp reaction to the lactic acid accummulation. If they only realized that their swim split would be faster if they actually paced those first few meters, the start would be more pleasant for all.

Dan

... yep, that's a pet peeve of mine - Swimmers who THINK they are fast swimmers. But, don't know how to act as a good swimmer. IMHO, they are the most dangerous.

Their idea of swimming fast is to sprint out at the beginning... mowing over swimmers in some kind of show of bravado... only to crap out about half way through the swim and you pass them. Or as in my case, (when I have only done this once - and have some regret) I once caught up to a swimmer that literly swam over myself and a lady swimmer next to me at the start. Then began to slow down at about half-way point. That put him in my sights. As I approached him from a drafting position, I grab his legs and propelled myself over him. I know I shouldn't probably done that... but, man sometimes you just can't help yourself.

Now that I think about it, the idea of basing waves based on swimming experience/ability may not be all that bad of an idea.

FWIW Joe Moya

I think everyone is a bit hasty with the "he can't swim" theory here. Frequently, there's a heart or other health issue that leads to the drowning. I know the guy was only 35, but it happens.

... sorry, but I never said or inferred, a "he can't swim" theory. In fact, the particulars regarding the trajedy in Guelph has not been determined. It would be very premature and improper to point a finger and sight fault. My previous posts have only indicated that it was an unfortunate accident that needs to be evaluated. Hopefully, we can learned from this unfortunate incident.

On the otherhand, I am also first to admit that mass starts are something that should not be taken for granted as something simple - specially for beginners (this is what is reference in my most recent posts - examples sighted, nothing more).

Joe Moya

Mitch Fraser is Graham's brother. He took over running the series a few years ago when Graham moved on to expand the IMNA events. I have been doing Trisport races since 1990 and in the 14 seasons I've been at it I've always found the races extremely well organized. They don't mes around with safety at the events. I've been at a few over the yearsm where swims were cancelled for safety reasons. While I was not at Guelph this year, I have done the race and the "lake" is a really a big man-made pond and it is quite shallow this time of year (you usually have to wade out into the sludge to start swimming since the water level is down so much). The shorter tri this man was doing was probably the try-a-tri which has a 375m swim. The swim course at Guelph for this is a short rectangle where you're never more than 100m from shore and they always have lifeguards out in kayaks. There were 411 finishers in the race so I would imagine that the field was broken up into a number of waves (they usually don't have more than 80 - 100 in a single wave unless it something like the half ironman in Peterborough) and Guelph has a fairly large stretch of beach to start from so unless you are really determined to run out and get in the thick of things you can avoid the crowds. It is a very tragic and unfortunate incident for the man and his family and for the triathlon community.

This is not an IM Utah situation. I doubt the RD did anything wrong. This sounds very much like an athlete problem, and probably a case of panic. Once panic sets in, the water can be very shallow and it doesn't matter. I've been swimming for almost 60 years. I've swum in frigid and rough Lake Erie in February. But, when I get a panic attack it takes every trick in my bag to stay sane. When you panic you are entirely witless and almost defenseless in water. When that fellow was standing on the shoreline I'll bet his bp was elevated, heart rate waaaay up, adrenaline pumping, etc. Then this herd of mindless "buffalo" lunge for the water as though they were fleeing machine gun fire. How is someone who is afraid of the water and has few skills going to cope in such a situation? They aren't. The smart ones come back in and bag it. Most try to make it and do. A few don't.

The Federations could do a better job of requiring certification that you can and have done the distance before. It isn't much and won't stop all deaths, but it seems like a rational predicate. It was done often in the early days. I have no clue why RDs stopped doing it and I don't recall if they old Tri-Fed required it. (I don't think so.)

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

It seems like this has been a bad year all around for triathlon. A couple of people have been killed at high profile races, and locally(MA) there have been some accidents involving cyclists running each other off the road or cars ignoring the traffic control and running down riders. It's all very sad.

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I was at a triathlon this morning in Burlington, ON and a couple people said that the man suffered a massive heart attack early in the swim. Word has it that swimmers around him reported that he suddenly just stopped moving and went under the water. None of this is confirmed, just what I've heard.

Dan

What kind of physical condition was the fellow in? I have neighbors in their 30s who look like they are going to suffer cardiac arrest taking out the garbage. And this problem is only going to get worse with this epidemic of obesity we are facing. We are looking at massive numbers of people in their 30s, 40s, and 50s coming down with preventable health conditions such as diabetes, heart disease, strokes, cancer, etc. Very troubling stuff on the health horizon. And, from what I've seen of Canadians, they aren't any better off than Americans, except they have universal health care.

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

Universal health care just means longer waits, poorly paid doctors and nurses and higher taxes. It isn't that great a thing.

Oh, you mean like our Veteran's Administration here in the States. :), Actually, I shouldn't complain. They've been very good to me. <smacks self>j

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

"

Universal health care just means longer waits, poorly paid doctors and nurses and higher taxes. It isn't that great a thing."

Our health care system may have it's flaws, but as somebody who has lived in both Canada and the US let me say up front IMO that the Canadian system is better. It certainly is more equalitarian. Saw a report on CNN just last week that noted that prescription drugs in Canada are 60% of the cost in the US. National health care is in existance in every western democracy except the US and none of these countries are holding up the US system as an example to be followed. In fact every other country views this as a reason to justify government national health insurance, and on this issue, the voters aren't likely to disagree.