Total Body Force Swimming - Brett Sutton

May 8, 18 18:22

Post #1 of 47 (9653 views)

When reading about Total Body Force Swimming (TBF Swimming) it would appear there is no thorough guide. Clever marketing from the TriSutto camp I suppose, don't give up all the secrets.

So I am trying to piece together the fundamentals, I have come up with:
- windmill the arms through the recovery action (like a cricket fast bowler)
- point the hand out and enter thumb first
- make the entry wide, in line with the shoulder (to avoid snaking in the water)
- don't worry about kicking too much, employ a 2 beat kick
- don't worry about keeping the head down, look at your hand entering the water before breathing
- unilateral breathing suits most athletes best

Has anyone here been a student of TBF Swimming? Any guidance would be great.

There isn't much info on the underwater component. I assume we are still going for the usual high elbow catch? And, I assume we are trying really accelerate through the underwater component to mirror the recovery arm speed?

Keen to hear from anyone that knows the technique or has any tips before I start windmilling up and down the pool like a madman!

Ref:
http://blog.trisutto.com/tbf-swimming-part-1/
http://blog.trisutto.com/tbf-swimming-part-2/
http://blog.trisutto.com/tbf-swimming-part-3/
Nb. There are a few other posts on his blog.

Thanks

Re: Total Body Force Swimming - Brett Sutton [rob0106] [ In reply to ]

May 8, 18 18:29

Post #2 of 47 (9628 views)

I tried leading with the thumb first last week and felt it in my shoulder right away and didn't try it again. That was a scary little pain.

Re: Total Body Force Swimming - Brett Sutton [Spartan420] [ In reply to ]

May 8, 18 18:33

Post #3 of 47 (9619 views)

Spartan420 wrote:

I tried leading with the thumb first last week and felt it in my shoulder right away and didn't try it again. That was a scary little pain.

Yeah, will be a major change to my pretty but also pretty slow style! Going to take it slow to avoid injury.

Re: Total Body Force Swimming - Brett Sutton [Spartan420] [ In reply to ]

May 8, 18 19:09

Post #4 of 47 (9545 views)

Spartan420 wrote:

I tried leading with the thumb first last week and felt it in my shoulder right away and didn't try it again. That was a scary little pain.

He actual promotes thumb first entry!? That's one of the main causes of swimmers shoulder, rotator cuff tendinitis. Puts massive amount of stress on the shoulder. Plus it can also encourage a cross over and swinging recovery, you don't want either of those.

Re: Total Body Force Swimming - Brett Sutton [zedzded] [ In reply to ]

May 8, 18 19:17

Post #5 of 47 (9531 views)

Not sure how he would be promoting a thumb first entry, when the thumb is on the other side of the swim paddle....(-;

Re: Total Body Force Swimming - Brett Sutton [zedzded] [ In reply to ]

May 8, 18 19:20

Post #6 of 47 (9526 views)

Yea, that can be a bad idea.

In general, I'm not a fan of "one size fits all" technique schools of thought. It "seems" like this is leaning that way, but I could be mistaken.

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Re: Total Body Force Swimming - Brett Sutton [rob0106] [ In reply to ]

FindinFreestyle

May 8, 18 19:29

Post #7 of 47 (9503 views)

I always figured he found my drill to be so excellent, he tried to devise an entire system around it

Re: Total Body Force Swimming - Brett Sutton [FindinFreestyle] [ In reply to ]

May 8, 18 20:00

Post #8 of 47 (9440 views)

FindinFreestyle wrote:

I always figured he found my drill to be so excellent, he tried to devise an entire system around it

That is interesting... what sort of speed can you maintain with this style? Looks very much like TBF in slow mo.

Re: Total Body Force Swimming - Brett Sutton [rob0106] [ In reply to ]

May 8, 18 20:15

Post #9 of 47 (9406 views)

Swimming is so dumb and annoying.

I used to have a wider entry. Swim coach friend advised me to tighten it up last year, almost to the point of biceps brushing the head. Seemed to help me get faster. Now Sutto says widen up?

I'm going to either hop in the DeLorean and start swimming competitively at 7 or stash some fins and a little motor in the lakes this summer. Stupid swimming.

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team

Re: Total Body Force Swimming - Brett Sutton [rob0106] [ In reply to ]

May 8, 18 20:30

Post #10 of 47 (9389 views)

I'm not going to even attempt to chime in on the do-don'ts of technique here, but I will add that after watching the Sutto videos of Spirig etc., I'm reassured that they have such high turnover and powerful pulls to maintain speed.

If you watch too many Sun Yang videos with his monster long arms, you start thinking that something's wrong with you when you can't stroke as slowly as he does and go remotely as fast.

Nicola Spirig looks exactly how fast I'd expect someone who's not 6"4+ to swim in terms of turnover and cadence.

Last edited by: lightheir: May 8, 18 20:31

Re: Total Body Force Swimming - Brett Sutton [rob0106] [ In reply to ]

May 8, 18 22:33

Post #11 of 47 (9230 views)

Coach the swimmer not the stroke --Swim Smooth...what works for some doesnt work for all...look at their video analysis of elite swimmers...you have choppy strokes, smooth strokes, arms swung to the side....windmill, classic etc...try it and see if it works for you if it doesn't find what does work for you.

"see the world as it is not as you want it to be"

Re: Total Body Force Swimming - Brett Sutton [rob0106] [ In reply to ]

May 9, 18 0:02

Post #12 of 47 (9154 views)

rob0106 wrote:

When reading about Total Body Force Swimming (TBF Swimming) it would appear there is no thorough guide. Clever marketing from the TriSutto camp I suppose, don't give up all the secrets.

So I am trying to piece together the fundamentals, I have come up with:
- windmill the arms through the recovery action (like a cricket fast bowler)
- point the hand out and enter thumb first
- make the entry wide, in line with the shoulder (to avoid snaking in the water)
- don't worry about kicking too much, employ a 2 beat kick
- don't worry about keeping the head down, look at your hand entering the water before breathing
- unilateral breathing suits most athletes best

Has anyone here been a student of TBF Swimming? Any guidance would be great.

There isn't much info on the underwater component. I assume we are still going for the usual high elbow catch? And, I assume we are trying really accelerate through the underwater component to mirror the recovery arm speed?

Keen to hear from anyone that knows the technique or has any tips before I start windmilling up and down the pool like a madman!

Ref:
http://blog.trisutto.com/tbf-swimming-part-1/
http://blog.trisutto.com/tbf-swimming-part-2/
http://blog.trisutto.com/tbf-swimming-part-3/
Nb. There are a few other posts on his blog.

Thanks

I think the first thing he would say is that you are over analysing! :-). From what I can work out Sutton prefers 'do ers' to 'thinkers'.

You've missed the push past the hips in the last 1/3rd of the stroke. (several blogs on that.)

And I wouldn't suggest windmilling up and down the pool as being your target. The paddles and PB approach promote a steady 'lock, lever, recover' rhythm that isn't hurried.

Good luck, it's worked great for me.

Re: Total Body Force Swimming - Brett Sutton [tuckandgo] [ In reply to ]

May 9, 18 1:52

Post #13 of 47 (9079 views)

Pushing past the hips is a waste of effort. Will just make your arms more tired for little gain. I thought people stopped emphasising that in early 90s? Unless it’s come back in?

Re: Total Body Force Swimming - Brett Sutton [fulla] [ In reply to ]

May 9, 18 1:59

Post #14 of 47 (9066 views)

The rear part of the stroke is the fastest you will ever be in the water.
There is no other part of the stroke where you will move faster through the water and you do it all with just triceps.
This is also the most streamlined part of the stroke.
Why would you want to drop this from your stroke?

Re: Total Body Force Swimming - Brett Sutton [lyrrad] [ In reply to ]

May 9, 18 3:22

Post #15 of 47 (8981 views)

I swear, I've been told both things: Hand in the water too long and to lengthen my stroke. So I tried to lengthen out the front and some coach offered I looked like I was pulling my arm out of my socket. Next coach says yeah, that's a bit what you're aiming for. All maddening contradictions. But my whole body position does feel longer when I slow down to execute the tricept push.

The thing about this windmilling conversation that confuses me, well a few things:
1) I guess this is just a drill to what - focus on shoulder twisting as a component of power to the stroke?
Because 2) A more caught-up style seems to help me keep my shoulders lower (possibly b/c I haven't got the right core involvement to hold that position without using my arms as leverage ahead of my line's fulcrum point).
3) This looks like the kind of way to swim to be sure no one shares a lane with you. Seems like a recipe for contact-city in an actual OWS race.

To breathe, to feel, to know I'm alive.

Re: Total Body Force Swimming - Brett Sutton [fulla] [ In reply to ]

May 9, 18 3:40

Post #16 of 47 (8956 views)

fulla wrote:

Pushing past the hips is a waste of effort. Will just make your arms more tired for little gain. I thought people stopped emphasising that in early 90s? Unless it’s come back in?

This is what Sutton says. - which is what the thread is about - rather than a debate on swim technique.

Re: Total Body Force Swimming - Brett Sutton [lyrrad] [ In reply to ]

May 9, 18 3:47

Post #17 of 47 (8943 views)

lyrrad wrote:

The rear part of the stroke is the fastest you will ever be in the water.
There is no other part of the stroke where you will move faster through the water and you do it all with just triceps.
This is also the most streamlined part of the stroke.
Why would you want to drop this from your stroke?

You are the fastest at that point because: (1) you just finished the most powerful part of your pull -- the front portion. and, (2) you are in the most streamlined position within the stroke cycle. You are not "doing it all with just triceps". The stroke should be ending, the hand skulling out of the water, and the arm preparing to recover as your hand reaches your hips. A swimmer shouldn't be looking to achieve a tricep extensions workout back there.

Re: Total Body Force Swimming - Brett Sutton [SH] [ In reply to ]

May 9, 18 7:55

Post #18 of 47 (8683 views)

Well actually, you just finished the middle part of the pull which is an inward sweep, so what are you going to do with your hand and arm from your belly button backwards?

Re: Total Body Force Swimming - Brett Sutton [lyrrad] [ In reply to ]

May 9, 18 7:59

Post #19 of 47 (8668 views)

The "s" stroke went out the window ages ago. Any inward sweep is relative to and incidental to body roll.

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Re: Total Body Force Swimming - Brett Sutton [monty] [ In reply to ]

May 9, 18 8:16

Post #20 of 47 (8640 views)

too funny

thumb entering the water first creates a need for internal rotation of the arm and jams the head of the humerus into the shoulder joint... picture what cops do when they arrest someone ... its a movement that immobilized the skeleton and sends emergency signals to the brain that make us 'reactionary' .. which is why its so helpful when arresting someone.
So, I agree.. coach the swimmer but some basic fundamentals of skeletal functionality are critical to everyone.

daved

Re: Total Body Force Swimming - Brett Sutton [rob0106] [ In reply to ]

May 9, 18 8:20

Post #21 of 47 (8622 views)

Can someone clarify what Sutto is trying to achieve in making his athletes actively change their freestyle stroke to this swinging straight-armed recovery?

I think it's something to do with more arm/shoulder engagement which should somehow 'save energy to the bike/run according to those articles he wrote, but it's not exactly clear to me how this technique would be superior to a more relaxed-seeming bent-arm recovery.

Was also surprising to me to hear him bemoaning how his athletes would say they could swim faster with the regular bent-arm recovery, but he insisted that they use his technique (and go slower) so they would have better bike/run results. Physicswise, how does that work?

Re: Total Body Force Swimming - Brett Sutton [zedzded] [ In reply to ]

May 9, 18 8:26

Post #22 of 47 (8607 views)

+1 to that. don't do thumb entry

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Re: Total Body Force Swimming - Brett Sutton [lightheir] [ In reply to ]

May 9, 18 8:49

Post #23 of 47 (8562 views)

Im not sure about his athletes complaining and going slower.
So i cant go there.

However, the use of arm weight in the over water phase of swimming is a very often an overlooked asset in swimming faster. Bent elbow recovery (again non-functional skeletal alignment and energy loss) makes less sense to me than managing to throw your heavy arm weight forward. Dont think your arms are heavy? hold them out and see how long you can go.

The language of swimming, in some instances, could use an overhaul. RECOVERY is not the best way to describe the above water movement of the arms.

There is a middle ground for sure (in movement patterns) and is again, based on the athlete... but a functional arm throw is a great way to create and sustain velocity.

(another argument for not "finishing" (yuck) "past the hip" (yuck) ...

good luck w your swimming

daved

Re: Total Body Force Swimming - Brett Sutton [daved] [ In reply to ]

May 9, 18 8:57

Post #24 of 47 (8532 views)

bent elbow lets you accelerate your hand quicker on the recovery phase. If you're smaller with short arms, then I don't think it matters as much as if you are tall with long arms.

But it's not something that most of us should really concentrate on anyway. what happens under the water is more important, the recovery phase is just a necessary evil to get your arms in position to execute the next stroke.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Re: Total Body Force Swimming - Brett Sutton [daved] [ In reply to ]

May 9, 18 8:59

Post #25 of 47 (7508 views)

However, the use of arm weight in the over water phase of swimming is a very often an overlooked asset in swimming faster//

I believe this is the area Sutto is trying to address with his comments, he just is not a very good communicator, never has been. At least outside of his actual athletes he has under him daily.( couldn't resist)

But yes, part of the new paradigm of recovery is velocity. I have always used a more of a swing around vs what was taught us, the high bent elbow finger drag across the ear style. I see that style in a lot of swimmers, especially the flyers that do free sprints. But the overhead throw is become more and more prevalent lately, so must be something to it. I know sprinters have been using it in the final meters of their races, accompanied by straight arm pulling, and now I see the recovery part during most of the race. Allistar Brownlee uses it in OW when it is rough, and that makes a lot of sense for plowing through up and down seas. I think if you are breaking water it makes more sense too, less if you are in a good draft.

I just think that swimming is getting more and more refined for each circumstance, distances, where in a race, OW conditions, that there is no one way for it all. So best get good at all of it so that you can change on a dime when conditions warrant it...

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