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Tires, Pressures, Roughness...Josh bringing it all together
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In case you haven't seen it, here's the finale of Josh Poertner's articles on this subject on the Silca blog, including a "cameo appearance" by moi, and references to ST articles (dating back to 2009!...damn, time goes fast!) Enjoy!


https://silca.cc/...y-and-previous-works

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Tires, Pressures, Roughness...Josh bringing it all together [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks Tom for all of the help and input throughout the last year plus that we've been working on this!

Happy to take any questions here on the forum that people may have about any of the articles.
J

http://www.SILCA.cc
Check out my podcast, inside stories from more than 20 years of product and tech innovation from inside the Pro Peloton and Pro Triathlon worlds!
http://www.marginalgainspodcast.cc
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Re: Tires, Pressures, Roughness...Josh bringing it all together [joshatsilca] [ In reply to ]
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These have been awesome reads! Thank you Josh! And Tom!
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Re: Tires, Pressures, Roughness...Josh bringing it all together [joshatsilca] [ In reply to ]
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Looks great, thanks for compiling all this data.

Questions -

1 How does tire width affect the breakthrough point?

2 How does rider weight affect the breakthrough point?

BTW, similar concepts are understood in mx and auto racing world's as unsprung weight.
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Re: Tires, Pressures, Roughness...Josh bringing it all together [joshatsilca] [ In reply to ]
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joshatsilca wrote:
Thanks Tom for all of the help and input throughout the last year plus that we've been working on this!

Happy to take any questions here on the forum that people may have about any of the articles.
J


So you are saying that while fresh tarmac may look pretty and feel fast, it turns out that some age to it is actually faster? Will we get to see some data for other weight riders and different size tires? For the sake of data, did you do any testing with latex tubes and regular butyl tubes? Read parts 1-4 tonight, fantastic read. Thanks for all the hard work :)


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Re: Tires, Pressures, Roughness...Josh bringing it all together [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Karl and Thomas,
We will be pulling width and rider weight into the equation in part 6 after we talk aerodynamics..which are affected any all of this and more.

However, wider tires will generally shift the breakpoint pressure to the left (toward lower pressure) and also from the yet limited testing we are doing show so far that wider tires have flatter impedance curves on pavement type surfaces..likely because they are better able to bridge the negative spaces within the pavement.

We are continually adding to this set, but of course, each data point on the curve takes about an hour to collect..each curve on the graph is roughly a full day of work for 2 people plus the post analysis and all of that fun stuff! So far we have presented only 25mm data, we have a few runs with 23mm so that gives us some direction here.

We have been using the Chung Method for this and have been using an aero bike and position to try and keep CxA as stable and repeatable as possible..the downside here is that our P5 will not handle anything wider than the 25mm tire on a 16.5c or 17.5c bead width rim so while we plan to test with 28 and 32mm tires, we will have to re-baseline.

Also of interest is that because we are using Tri positioning and a very vertically stiff frame and wheels, some of the pillars of cycling science have asked me to look at this using a more normal frame and fork to see if the particular bike we are using may be exacerbating the suspension losses by transferring even more of the ground inputs to the rider rather than allowing say the flexing of an efficient fork to absorb some of them. The idea being that the steepness of the impedance curve may become flatter with a more flexible bike, and a road position is naturally more flexible than a tri position... this concept currently has me pretty fascinated as it only makes sense that the stiffness of the thing on top of the tire is playing into this..but so far the data here is just too limited. Though I do look at Jan Heine's data using larger tires and classic randoneuring frames and he has found a breakpoint dip in rolling resistance with flatter Crr curves before and after the breakpoint..though he is also doing this with tires on the order of 2x the width as we are studying so again, much more data needs to be collected.

Lastly, Thomas, yes, the pavement situation is partially that it is rough, but also partially we believe that it was soft from being so new and also that it will compact further over time. This is where it becomes really hard to begin defining the surfaces.. what do we call excellent pavement or good? How do we develop a scale that people can use in the real world to make decisions. A year ago I would have said that 4 day old pavement was as good as it gets..now I think that the same pavement a year or so later is much faster if you are riding in the vehicle tracks. However, this clearly has its own limits as eventually that pavement will develop ripples, begin losing some of it's fill, develop cracks..etc and will then be much less good.

http://www.SILCA.cc
Check out my podcast, inside stories from more than 20 years of product and tech innovation from inside the Pro Peloton and Pro Triathlon worlds!
http://www.marginalgainspodcast.cc
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Re: Tires, Pressures, Roughness...Josh bringing it all together [joshatsilca] [ In reply to ]
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Awesome work guys, thanks for your research. I have got a quick question:


joshatsilca wrote:

However, wider tires will generally shift the breakpoint pressure to the left (toward lower pressure)

Is this result of your tests or just a guess?
This seems counter-intuitive. My guess would be other way around, as part of ground "noise" can get absorbed over wider contact patch of the tyre.
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Re: Tires, Pressures, Roughness...Josh bringing it all together [otebski] [ In reply to ]
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Otebski,
Our assertion that wider will shift left and down is based on our limited data between 23 and 25mm tires in a few runs on one surface type.

The jury is definitely still out on this one and we just don't have enough data yet on enough surfaces with enough widths of tire. The best data set out there beyond ours is from Jan Heine at Bicycle Quarterly. He has done some testing with tubular and clincher tires a few years back on a moderately rough surface and actually found 2 breakpoints (you can read it HERE). His theory was that at high pressures, the larger tires were able to more efficiently bridge the gaps in the pavement effectively making the surface appear less rough, whereas at lower pressures the tires were able to more efficiently absorb them..and interestingly at pressures in between the rolling resistance increased considerably. We see in our data that our curve past the breakpoint isn't quite linear and may actually be bending back down and could possibly have another minimum out at the 150+psi range, but as there aren't even rims that allow for 140+ pressures, and the test rider HATES the 140psi max we used in our testing, so we have not done any testing at those extreme pressures. Jan also has another test with a 25mm clincher tire showing essentially no difference in Rolling power between 160 and 200psi, but again, these tests and data are very hard as there are so many surface variables that could be coming into play.

Even if we did test to extremes pressures and found a second breakpoint minimum, I think that unless it was substantially lower than the first, there would be no way to argue for using it. The comfort, control, cornering grip/confidence and durability and longevity of your equipment would all be working against the use of some very high pressure.

Back to the initial question, though, it may be that for surfaces with high negative space, like new asphalt, wider tires may have a higher breakpoint as they are better at bridging the negative spaces in the surface. However, it also seems logical that on surfaces with high positive bump content, this would be opposite as the higher stiffness of the wider tires at the same pressure would work against it on those types of surface.. so much more to learn here.

http://www.SILCA.cc
Check out my podcast, inside stories from more than 20 years of product and tech innovation from inside the Pro Peloton and Pro Triathlon worlds!
http://www.marginalgainspodcast.cc
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