Honestly, that’s one of the most impressive things I’ve ever seen on here.

He really is an impressive masters swimmer, and doing that time for the distance event is no joke. He is also great at the strokes too, so expect he will be lighting up that age group for a few years. I have an old buddy that might give it a go in a year or two when he ages up to that group. Had some health issues and a couple year setback, but went 17;30+ in the 1650 last year at 58. I think that is within range of a sub 18 1500LCM, but as all us oldsters know, you have to manage the mine field that gets thrown at you each and every year you get older.

And you have to make hay while you can, and in the early years of each AG. Friend of mine set the record a few years ago in the 65+ at 18;48, so time is not your friend when going for set benchmarks like a sub 18. Each year now seems like many instead of just one when trying to hold onto performance, but what a great game we get to play!

I've seen first hand how he trains and the dedication he puts into it. I remember him committing to the WR for the 60-64AG when he was in his late 40s, because he knew he wasn't fast enough for the 50-59 bracket. I love in the video when he says that 'it's never too late"!

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Solid time! How many meters a week does he put in? What are some of his workouts?

In his interview posted up here he said he does a 3 day on, day off, then 2 more and sunday off during peak training. I would imagine he swims like most Masters, 3.5k to 5.5k workouts, so 20k to 27k per week or so on average.

And yes, some of his big and solid workouts would be fun to look at. Especially the IM ones, he can do all the strokes pretty well...

For those who are interested in the exploits of older competitors I think the next few years will be interesting. With the explosion of AG racing over the last twenty years there are going to be many amazing athletes. I retired at 57 and got a little serious about Tri at 60 resulting in lifetime PBs in swim bike and run over the next dozen years. And there's plenty that are faster than I ever was or could hope to be.

But 18 mins for 1500m is otherworldly. He should have a talk to Lionel (sorry couldn't help myself)

Good for him !!

I wonder what that record will be in 7 years?

(I apologize for this line of inquiry. I am asking for a friend. I wouldn't want him to waste a half decade training to break a record that has moved from "difficult" to "totally unattainable" in the interim).

I see some fast times in the USA 55-59 AG from last year's spring nationals.
But lot's of Americans have great turns!!
The times from summer nationals 55-59 - not soo strong.

it is a great swim and a nice interview.

to be honest i don't know anyone in my swim circle that could do a sub 18 1500. a guy at 47 or 48 did 18,08 - swam back in the days of thorpe and hackett occasionally in the outside lanes at nationals. I must be slow and have slow friends too :)

a few italians who in the next 5 to 10 years could do some damage. igor piovesan is just moving up to 50s and has from 2022 421, 858 and 17.23. another guy about to age up to 60s is fabio calmasini who was a 15 minute swimmer scm when he was a youth. igor is a controversial contestant in the masters realm - he served a doping violantion for some kind of anabloc agent, as a masters racer. now obviously its not just igor that gets on the juice in the masters but still just put a light pencil shading under the times.

i would not be surprised if when they are sharpening for a big meet 3 months out the fastest italians do some doubles and really give it a crack

a 60 year old i know did 60x100 on 1'20 SCM for his birthday - lead changed throughout the set. A sub 18 for a 60th bday is a nice present too

He swims 5x week. Most practices are 4-5k and he sticks to the classics 10x200s, 5x400s, 3x800s, etc but as mentioned before he is quite good with 400IM and back so he does some strokes as well.

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Kuddos for ensuring there is pink to your Lionel reference.

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I think this one will stick for a while. LCM is a whole different ball game.

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I would be curious to know how much intensity he does, ie how much of his yardage is below aerobic threshold (LT1), how much is between aerobic and anaerobic threshold, and how much is vo2max/sprints. I imagine as an older guy swimming hard every practice would be counterproductive, but then again, his mileage is not very high for a pure swimmer.

Why would he train like that?

A max of 27k/wk seems pretty low for someone who really, really wants to break a world record.

I think I might be able to properly recover from 45K
(That is just a suspicion. And I am only 53).

Surely, there are some 60 year olds, that can properly recover from 35k+/week??

Of all events, the 1500 LCM - should benefit from a high volume approach.

(I do realize that my biggest problem as a youth, and the biggest problem of my era was overtraining).

Virtually all of the masters swimmers I know swim 25k or less a week. And several on my team hold world records, and a ton of national records too. I think the thing we learn as we age is that less is really more, and doing very high quality shorter sessions is the ticket.

And no, you dont recover like you used to after 50, you should be feeling that effect by now. Of course most all of these FOP swimmers were also FOP in their day too. We have one guy 50 now that still breaks 17 minutes for 1650 on less than what this guy does. And another guy that is 52 who still goes about 57 flat for 100 breast and low 2 minutes for the 200.

I rarely jump in with these guys as it is 2 hours from my home, but they dont do anything special or different from all the other masters, just swim the intervals faster. And for the guys, really cracks me up that they have full on dad bods too. If you just ran into these guys on the deck, you would think you could take em, but in the water they become dolphins..

Monty-

The fact that you (and I) don't know anyone who is doing higher swim volume actually begs my question...

If everyone is doing low volume...

How do we know that that is the correct approach?

Of course...
All things being equal....
The guy with the lifetime PR of 15:00, is going to win the race and set the masters world record.
The guy with the lifetime PR of 16:00 - is STILL going to sh#t out of luck...

BUT
What if the 16:00 guy swam a lot more than the 15:00 guy?
What would happen?

Surely, some amount of effort might make up for a lack of talent!

I concede that "effort" is not all volume.

That planning, intensity and especially recovery are also important.

On a personal note:
I AM struggling right now with my multi-sports performance.

5 years ago I broke my leg.
I took some time off
I slowly rebuilt volume.
Trained really hard.
And won my AG at an Ironman by 30 minutes!
It appeared that I had a legitimate shot at a Kona podium.

I keep training hard!
There has been a retrospectively noticeable decline in my RELATIVE performances.

This clearly does have something to do with TOO much training.

But if I dropped my triathlon volume down to 4 hr/wk, I am pretty sure things would be even worse!!

Back to swimming...
I used to race against Glen Housman.

If I were swimming 70k/wk and he were swimming 20k.
I feel I might have been able to beat him

I think you are missing the forrest for the tree. As he says, he has been swimming consistently this way since the mid 90s. I don't know anyone else who loves to train that much over so many consistent years in so many grueling events. He also swims 400IM, 200 back and 200 fly.

I am 40 now and threw down a 2:02 SCM Free a week after going 2:51 at Richmond marathon. And this is swimming 10K a week and mostly tri training 12hrs/week. I definitely look up to Arnaldo's path and maybe, if I can also find my own way to stay in sport and swimming for the next 20 years, I can get to the top ranks as well (*I did get a FINA Top 10 in 2022) and plan to focus on Worlds Masters Champs in Singapore next year. Currently training for my second Boston and oping to break 2:50.

Per usual, consistency compounds and if you can find that special sauce that works for you, keeps you healthy, motivated and with a strong social network, everything else is gravy.

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That’s pretty cool you raced against Glen. I’m sure he was doing 70km.

I suspect some swimmers unlike triathletes say they swim less than what they do. I would be surprised if someone going for a masters world record in a distance event maxed out during their preparation phase at 25km per week.

Alex kostich has said, when he was in his 40s, he swims 40-60 km per week. Or 2 hours per day 5-7 times per week. I am not sure if he does that much anymore.

He holds a 15 something from the younger master ages records in the 1500.

Monty would have come across more top flight masters distance swimmers so I will take his word for it. But they may be doing some extras on the side and after work just to cram in more fitness

Nice combo of times there. Still you seem to be a better swimmer than runner, though an accomplished runner to go sub 3 hours for a marathon.

That is the aim of the game in masters isn’t it - just don’t stop and try to get sick and injured as little as possible, while not doing anything really hard and significant training volume.

The people who are able to swim sub 110 pace for 800 long course have probably had that ability when younger. Quite unheard of for people to train into that shape.

A guy from australia Frank Christian swam D3 in the states in the late 70s and early 80s at Monmouth. Times I’ve found are that he swam 10,03 for a 1000 and high 440s for the 500. But swam a low 17,30s and was just a second off the 50-54 1500 WR. So somewhat slower than his youth but not much slower. He is still in elite shape, carrying muscle and vascularity into his 60s now. Some people just love to absolutely whack themselves with training and it’s fun , and they seem to have always done so.

Your friend is another example of this

And Frank Christian still can’t always win his age group in the surf race at nationals.

But all these masters times pre 2009 don’t count in my book as who knows what they had under those big suits and if they wore suits :)

Fascinating thread / discussions. Thanks to all.

As for sub 18 past 60......I can't even.......

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I only swim.
I used to run. (31:09 10k)
I never did Triathlon.
Sue me.

Doesn’t this scream talent, though?

If it were as easy as dialing it back to get faster as you age up, everyone would easily do it.

To me this is the definition of talent - you can do exactly what everyone else does but you get outsized superior results for it.

I’ve been swimming nearly 20k per week as of late and I’m still a mop slow swimmer. I doubt 40k would make me a ton better. And I’m barely slower when training at 11k per week

Lightheir-
There is an argument...

It might go like this:
The most important training is race specific.

The follow up question is:
"How do you get in shape, so as to do this race specific training."

Personal analysis:
My college times for this event was around 16 minutes.
I could have swam 15 x 100s around 1:04 on the 1.10 pace.
How could I do this?
I swam 75,000 yds/wk

How did I get fast enough to do this workout
A) I was young
B) I swam 75,000 yards/week for 7+ years
This gave me the form and fitness to do this (in spite of the fact that my PR for a 100 was only 56, and 200 on 1:57).

I kind of agree with your sentiment.

I feel that it is often argued that:
"Masters world swim records will always belong to guys with 100 PRs of 51 and 1500 PRs of 15:20.
That masters world records will be achieved because of great form and talent. "

The counter argument to my feelings:
High volume is NOT the only way one can achieve the ability to do:
15 x 100 around 1:12 on 1:20 (for 18:00 at age 60).



Form is important..

Lightheir-
A swim coach might advise you on how one can get that kind of form on low volume.
World record form should be difficult to achieve. Especially if you can't just grind out the form with high volume on a youth swim team.
But world records are supposed to be hard.

Personally - I might have the muscle memory for that kind of world record form.

My question is:
"How might one get the strength and fitness" to do this?

My instinctive response is "high volume."
(Although: 1) I am getting old, 2) high volume gave me tendonitis and destroyed my motivation (when I was young).

To be clear....
Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery.
The question: "How might I imitate this. Is flattery.

My question is:
"How might one get the strength and fitness" to do this?

My instinctive response is "high volume."
(Although: 1) I am getting old, 2) high volume gave me tendonitis and destroyed my motivation (when I was young). //

I'll tell you what I believe to be true, and my answer to your questions. You cannot yardage your swim to beat others that crushed you in your heydays. I just dont see that happening in any of the age groups up to 70+. All those records, all the guys winning nationals and other big meets, were really, really good in their days. And from what I can tell of everyone except the 1500/1650 guys( and some of them even) is that they all swim like masters swimmers. Meaning that it is usually 3 to 5.5k a day, 4 to 5 days a week. Many have now added in some drylands as supplement, as that is the #1 thing an old person can do to not lose muscle mass. And that is becoming more widely known now too.


Like I said before, guys on my team are the best in the country, some the world, and all on 3 to 4k a day. But they were also very good in their day. And you wouldn't know it to look at them, virtually all dad bods, frustrates the hell out of me. But I learned that early on in my career, you cannot know a persons speed by looking at them, but the final heats in the games and NCAA's all seem to be ripped folks these days. So one could say that many masters are not optimizing in that regard, but old speed trumps all of that it seems.


The only guys I know that swam tons of yards were a couple distance guys, but now in their 70's seemed to have burned out and not crushing the AG's like they did for 30 years previously. I think it is just way more important to do race pace stuff in shorter sets, and fall back on the 10,000+ hours you already put in as a youngster. I have tried to up my yardages, but usually break down, and honestly do not go faster, but slower in short swim races..And of course injury potential %'s go way up as you get older and try and do stuff you did in your younger years.


And the funny thing is you just dont feel it, you swim as hard of efforts as you ever did, but the times just come down no matter what. Its a weird feeling at first, usually starts somewhere in your 50's, then takes til your 60's to accept it, and then try to manage the loses that come virtually every year after 65. Other than doping, just nothing you can do, just keep working harder and harder to go slower and slower. It has been ok for awhile to pick up the new strokes and the new speed of turns and suck, helps keep the speeds up even though you are deteriorating, just those underwater dolphins are hard when you get old. (-;

very well summarized.

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So… can anyone on ST hang with this beast?

What can he go around on 10x100 long course? 10 on 1’15?