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Re: The deal with the San Diego Start List [markfretta] [ In reply to ]
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wow mark, i gotta say that this just all sounds really bad.

question, if you get bumped for hunter is that it, you're completely out? it seems as if it would make sense to fall back at least on the waitlist in order of points (i.e. next)??

hopefully things will work out and you'll be on the starting line and can stick it to someone by getting a slot!
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Re: The deal with the San Diego Start List [pacco] [ In reply to ]
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maybe the ITU will just invite the necessary americans everything will b fine.
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Re: The deal with the San Diego Start List [markfretta] [ In reply to ]
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markfretta wrote:
So all relevant athletes have been aware of this "record" and substitution business for quite some time. We have all spent thousands of our own dollars to travel to random races to cultivate and strengthen our records in anticipation of this process. Here's the funny thing though: your record only comes into play if you MAKE THE INITIAL START LIST! Why is this important? Well, Ethan Brown (who I might point out is an extremely talented athlete, an even better person, and my good friend) is essentially the #1 athlete in the world on the ITU wait list to get into San Diego. This means that in a matter of hours when a random person withdraws from the race (and this will happen) Ethan will roll onto the start list. Ethan has a lower record than I, but will not be a sub candidate as he was not on the original start list. Stated differently, an athlete who performed well enough to make the initial start list (me) can be subbed for while an athlete who rolls onto the start list hours later but did not perform well enough to make it into the race initially AND has a WORSE record than me (Ethan) is protected and does not have to worry about being subbed out. Had Ethan had 15 more ITU points (maybe he would have finished a spot or two higher in Mooloolaba or in a random South American points race) he would have been on the initial start list and would have been the athlete with the lowest record making him the substitution candidate, but, since his results were not quite good enough to get him onto the start list initially, HE IS PROTECTED and doesn't have to worry about being subbed for!!! In summary, a worse performance is being rewarded. I am being penalized for making the start list over my teammates/competitors. USAT should have the common sense to wait until 12 days out from the race when the FINAL FINAL start list is set and then make its substitutions given the athletes who are on the start list then when athletes have rolled in off the wait list. Still, they are not adopting this process (well, yet). Their reasoning? "We want to provide notice to the athlete who will be subbed." ????????????? Okay, so let me get this straight... you want to be fair to me by providing me with notice that I might be taken off the start list? The athletes who are about to roll on don't even have "notice" that they'll be in the race so how are they negatively affected if you tell them when they roll on that they will be subbed for? In the words of Hunter Kemper, the beneficiary of this whole process, this is "ridiculous." I have some other words to describe this process, but I'll keep it classy.

Stay tuned to see how this all plays out. I have worked hard to get to this place and I am not going to just give in to this fundamentally unfair and flawed process.

Hi Mark,
Thanks for posting & pointing out this truly retarded process. How can USAT think that they're doing you a favor by subbing you this early? The smart and logical way if they wanted to ensure Hunter was on the start line would be inform you that "In advent of no further USA men making the start list when the lists are finalized you will be subbed out, if roll down occurs that person will be subbed instead of you". This way you could train and focus on the race & the very unlikely scenario played out of zero roll downs you'd be forewarned...... I'm shaking my head here in New Zealand at USATs retardness, I've heard and seen TriNZ have issues in my short time in the sport but this one takes the cake.

I second the poster who said something should be on the front page of Slowtwitch about this, it's just plain unjust!

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Chicks are like Voltron, the more you can get, the better it is." -Tucker
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Re: The deal with the San Diego Start List [AlphaQ] [ In reply to ]
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I find this whole situation absolutely disgraceful to our sport and country. This is beyond unacceptable in the management conducted by USAT over its athletes.
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Re: The deal with the San Diego Start List [powerhouse415] [ In reply to ]
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What's most funny to me is just the weirdness of the entire situation. Here we are with the US having our Olympic trials on OUR home soil, and it seems like a mess on both the men and women start list. I guess it's no wonder why we see our federation struggle with getting max starts with the men (great job with the women, I'll add).

Major failure on the entire process that we can't fill atleast 6 spots on the start list on home soil.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: The deal with the San Diego Start List [Mr ITU] [ In reply to ]
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Good grief, what a mess. Just when it seemed like USAT had begun to turn a corner from the dark ages of the Libby Burrell regime (when this kind of stuff was to be expected...), its back to business as usual with honest, hardworking athletes in the program getting royally screwed over....
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Re: The deal with the San Diego Start List [craig taylor] [ In reply to ]
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Also the host nation (USA in this case) is allowed a maximum of 8 athletes.
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Re: The deal with the San Diego Start List [LarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Does this not explain where USA stands in world rankings? Duh - Leadership?????? Time for an overhaul.
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Re: The deal with the San Diego Start List [BPerry] [ In reply to ]
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BPerry wrote:
maybe the ITU will just invite the necessary americans everything will b fine.

It's important to remember the US isn't the only country using this event to help select it's Olympic Team. I'm not American so can't comment on the USAT but a couple of points to mention. The start list process has been available for a while. In fact the ITU noticed the Yokohama issue and increased the start list from 65 to 70 athletes for both the Sydney and San Diego start lists to help alleviate the potential issue. All National Federations were made aware of this.
From an outside perspective, I'd say as a coach it would be nice for the National Federation to send me all the qualifying information. However, as a professional I would also take the time to clearly understand the entire qualifying process. If you have invested 4 years of your life to qualify what is an extra 5 to 10 hours to do the selection math. Why leave your fate in someone elses hand if they screw up which appears to of happened here. Not directing this at anyone but as a coach of an ITU athlete I had the math figured out prior to the start list being posted so there was no surprise.
It's almost like an athlete getting misdirected off course by an official. Yes the official is wrong but ultimately it's the athlete's responsibility to know the course which overrides the officials mistake. Yes USAT appears wrong but for athletes to be surprissed they didn't make the start list is the same as an athlete not taking time to learn the course. Ultimately knowing the criteria should be part of being professional.
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Re: The deal with the San Diego Start List [coach] [ In reply to ]
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However, as a professional I would also take the time to clearly understand the entire qualifying process. \\

That is exactly what our folks did here, tried to understand the process, but in the end it appears that not one athlete knew what was going on, so the blame has to fall on USAT. Even now at the last minute we are getting an understanding of the process, it is flawed in so many ways that there is no excuse for it. You bring up that old tired excuse that athletes should know the course, that is a copout. Race directors should mark courses so that a moron just showing up on race day could figure it out. It is totally unreasonable to expect an athlete to memorize a 100+ turns on some courses, often going the wrong way on streets, and very often changed just before an event for some last minute call. The same goes here, the rules should have been palin and simple, which they were not. Even our resident expert MR ITU was befuddled, and he studies this stuff like no one else..

Not sure why you are trying to make excuses for USAT as it is clear they fucked up in a major way. To trade out Mark for Hunter is one thing, but to not then put him at the top of the waiting list ahead of athletes he should be ahead of to replace any no shows is complete insanity. And this whole you did not eamil us from athletes that they 100% know are pointing for this one event and the olympics, athletes they pay and support to do just such, athletes thay talk to about it all the time, that is beyond comprehension how they could just now ignore them...

You are a coach, tell me how you would feel if any of your athletes were one of these. Just tell them that you are the fuck up because you did not know that the last minute rules would be so beyond any logical persons thinking? That is what you seem to imply you would do..
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Re: The deal with the San Diego Start List [Mr ITU] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks again for you insight, Mr ITU. Really feeling for those guys that thought they would be racing, especially Brown, Billington, Collins and Freta. Can't imagine the heart break, regardless of who's "fault" all of this is.

Jason Pedersen
RunPd.com - Running as fast I can since '93
@jasonpedersen
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Re: The deal with the San Diego Start List [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
However, as a professional I would also take the time to clearly understand the entire qualifying process. \\

That is exactly what our folks did here, tried to understand the process, but in the end it appears that not one athlete knew what was going on, so the blame has to fall on USAT. Even now at the last minute we are getting an understanding of the process, it is flawed in so many ways that there is no excuse for it. You bring up that old tired excuse that athletes should know the course, that is a copout. Race directors should mark courses so that a moron just showing up on race day could figure it out. It is totally unreasonable to expect an athlete to memorize a 100+ turns on some courses, often going the wrong way on streets, and very often changed just before an event for some last minute call. The same goes here, the rules should have been palin and simple, which they were not. Even our resident expert MR ITU was befuddled, and he studies this stuff like no one else..

Not sure why you are trying to make excuses for USAT as it is clear they fucked up in a major way. To trade out Mark for Hunter is one thing, but to not then put him at the top of the waiting list ahead of athletes he should be ahead of to replace any no shows is complete insanity. And this whole you did not eamil us from athletes that they 100% know are pointing for this one event and the olympics, athletes they pay and support to do just such, athletes thay talk to about it all the time, that is beyond comprehension how they could just now ignore them...

You are a coach, tell me how you would feel if any of your athletes were one of these. Just tell them that you are the fuck up because you did not know that the last minute rules would be so beyond any logical persons thinking? That is what you seem to imply you would do..

I'm not saying USAT didn't make mistakes. However, the rules in seeding athletes are posted on the ITU site. The 10 spots for the gold group, 30 spots based on Yokohama results. Then using the ITU ranking to fill up to 60 spots (changed to 65 for Sydney and San Diego). Then they will add an additional 5 Wildcard spots next week to fill the field.
This isn't rocket science. Every athlete at this level should be able or have support staff able to calculate this as a Professional. You would think the National Federation would do this for their athletes and have the calculations done but if I invested 4 years of my life on this I would sure make sure I knew what I was doing.
I coach a non American athlete on the San Diego start list and had the points calculated months ago.
I'm not saying USAT isn't in the wrong, but rather that the athlete and coach need to take some responsibility as well if they didn't score enough points to make the start list. The information was available online.
Bottom line, it's all in the details at this level of racing.
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Re: The deal with the San Diego Start List [coach] [ In reply to ]
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coach wrote:

Bottom line, it's all in the details at this level of racing.


Agreed...when medals are decided by mere seconds, it is indeed a matter of details.

BUT, it really shouldn't come down to details for who is on the starting line for a qualifying race when the the talent pool is compressed (many athletes closely matched in ability). USA Swimming and USA Track and Field cast a wide net in allowing entrants into their Trials and whomever goes the fastest at Trials gets the spots. Simple. Obviously its a little different with those being American-only events, but a qualifier is still a qualifier.

There are certainly drawbacks to that approach, but if a race is being used a qualifier then it shouldn't require this much complexity just to figure out who's in the field.

If it's going to be this convoluted, they should dispense with the charade of "qualifying" and just have a committee pick three athletes to send to the Games.
Last edited by: LarryP: Apr 12, 12 9:16
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Re: The deal with the San Diego Start List [LarryP] [ In reply to ]
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LarryP wrote:
coach wrote:

Bottom line, it's all in the details at this level of racing.


Agreed...when medals are decided by mere seconds, it is indeed a matter of details.

BUT, it really shouldn't come down to details for who is on the starting line for a qualifying race when the the talent pool is compressed (many athletes closely matched in ability). USA Swimming and USA Track and Field cast a wide net in allowing entrants into their Trials and whomever goes the fastest at Trials gets the spots. Simple. Obviously its a little different with those being American-only events, but a qualifier is still a qualifier.

There are certainly drawbacks to that approach, but if a race is being used a qualifier then it shouldn't require this much complexity just to figure out who's in the field.

If it's going to be this convoluted, they should dispense with the charade of "qualifying" and just have a committee pick three athletes to send to the Games.

Yes but this race is a World Triathlon Series Race and like all WTS races follows WTS rules. The Americans have chosen to use this race as an Olympic Qualifier for the USA Team as have many other National Federations.
This is not a USA Olympic Qualifying event that they are allowing visiting athletes to compete in.
The same start list criteria is being used for San Diego that they are using for tomorrow's Sydney WTS race or the Madrid WTS race 2 weeks after San Diego.
Seems to be lots of problems with the American selection policy, not with the ITU rules on setting the start list.
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Re: The deal with the San Diego Start List [coach] [ In reply to ]
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coach wrote:

Seems to be lots of problems with the American selection policy, not with the ITU rules on setting the start list.

Thanks for the clarification re: WTS vs. domestic race w/ foreign athletes.

Agreed. The ITU formula is complex and confusing but as you said, it is decipherable. Seems like those rules have been followed.

However, USAT choosing to make a charade of the selection process under the guise of an objective meritorious qualification standard is ridiculous.
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Re: The deal with the San Diego Start List [coach] [ In reply to ]
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Seems to be lots of problems with the American selection policy, not with the ITU rules on setting the start list. //

I believe that is what everyone has been saying here since the beginning of this thread. I don't think anyone is bashing the ITU here, at least i'm not and it appears the athletes involved are not. It is USAT in the wrong and the ones getting bashed. I think people took offense at you defending them, not the ITU..
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Re: The deal with the San Diego Start List [coach] [ In reply to ]
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coach you are right in most points
but i think the real issue here is that there is a guy that made the start list but that is not going to race (at this stage) because of something is going really wrong here and is defo not best practise.
Than there will be somebody that hasnt made the points but gets in through the waiting list as there will be people not showing up.
they subed the wrong athlete.
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Re: The deal with the San Diego Start List [pk] [ In reply to ]
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pk wrote:

but i think the real issue here is that there is a guy that made the start list but that is not going to race (at this stage) because of something is going really wrong here and is defo not best practise.

Right there - that's the issue. Everything else was explicit I believe, months ago. But the sub'n issue needs addressing - common sense says it's just ludicrous.

WTC read this site, sponsors read this site, ITU come here. Quite clearly USAT must come here too.

Can someone from USAT please confirm you've communicated with athletes that Fretta won't be sub'd now and you've realised the error of your ways?

Or are you that stupid?
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Re: The deal with the San Diego Start List [monty] [ In reply to ]
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In short, this is what USAT says is their job (quoted from a recent USAT press release):
“In addition to its work with athletes, coaches, and race directors on the grassroots level, USA Triathlon provides leadership and support to elite athletes competing at international events, including ITU World Championships, Pan American Games and the summer Olympic Games.”
Regardless of anyone’s thoughts on what a coach or athlete should have known, USAT says their job is to “provide leadership and support”, and that’s in addition to their work “on the grassroots level.” If USAT says that is what they are supposed to do, why are so many athletes shocked at the start list? If it is true that some athletes were not on the start list because of the technicality of not sending in a letter saying they wanted to be in the race, then that is a perfect example of how we let them down. Technicalities are rules and must be met. But the national organization, which is supposed to provide leadership and support should have been proactively making sure all interested athletes had met all requirements, including the necessary emails to get on start lists. They should also be posting regular information of how all the top athletes fare according to the WTS rules. The fact that they sent a clarification email to their elite athletes only AFTER this debacle is a perfect example of a lack of leadership. Yes, they can site the rules and the fact that the rules are posted on their website and ITU's website, but the fact that so many people read the rules and were still taken by surprise is inexcusable. Where's the LEADERSHIP?? Are they here to HELP the athletes or do they just like having a job for which they get paid? They must have known Yokahama would be an issue when those unusual circumstances came up last year with that as a rescheduled race. (If they didn't know, then shame on them!) We should have pointed it out to all elites and advised them all to do whatever they could to try to get on the Yokahama start list. Nothing was ever said as far as I've been told.
And if they did know, why would they have sat and watched as people like Brown and Billington spend tons of money chasing points that would make no difference? They both tweeted saying they were in the trials. Something's rotten in the henhouse!
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Re: The deal with the San Diego Start List [Salmon Steve] [ In reply to ]
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You can be sure they have seen this thread, and probably trying to figure out who to blame. Unfortunately right now they are blaming the athlete, when it is clear they f'ed up big time. They need to step up and take responsibility now, tell Mark he is 1st on the sub list, and that is the fair thing to do. Sure it will piss off the other guys that now think they are next up, but it should have never been done that way. Someone is going to get screwed becasue of the horrible mistake, may as well make it right now and at the very least not screw the guy with the best standing...
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Re: The deal with the San Diego Start List [monty] [ In reply to ]
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I have no inside information but I don't think it's unreasonable to assume USAT may go to the ITU and ask for a wild card to help them get out of this mess.
I'm not familiar enough with the Wild Card application process to know what the chances of being successful are. There were over 120 entrants for both the male and female races. So a huge waitlist and the USA isn't the only country using this as a Olympic qualifier.
Will be interesting to see how this plays out.
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Re: The deal with the San Diego Start List [coach] [ In reply to ]
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I'm guessing that will be highly unlikely. ITU doesn't really care if it's US Trials or not. Many countries are using Sydney and San Diego as qualifiers (Canada for one). Others countries have the same rights/concerns about getting athletes onto the start list.

In my Opinion, USAT created this mess, and they are going to have to justify it. It's not up to the ITU to fix their problems. Maybe for 2016 they can create an adequate system
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Re: The deal with the San Diego Start List [REDSTORM] [ In reply to ]
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Are you all complaining about the Olympic selection policy? http://www.usatriathlon.org/...l/olympic-games.aspx
Or the USAT WTS entry policy? http://www.usatriathlon.org/...e-qualification.aspx

The WTS entry policy has been the same since the start of the 2011 WCS season for US athletes (and the ITU policy has been the same as well).

Yokohama was the first WCS of 2012. ITU policy has always been to use the 2011 rankings to create the start lists for either the 1st or first 2 WTS races of the season. Same policy used this year, 2011 list created Yokohama and Sydney (the first two WTS races of 2012 season). 2012 list created San Diego onwards.

All USAT elites must send an email to a specific email address to get their names on an ITU start list. You dont send your name you arent put on the list. USAT should not be emailing individual athletes to ask them if they want to get on the list, USAT sends out elite emails showing everybody who has signed up once or twice a month. If you arent on the list maybe you should sign up! USAT has to make a clear policy on this and they have. This has kept athletes out of races in the past because they have signed up too late. Remember you are talking about professional athletes here, not high school kids.

The onus is on the athletes to perform and perform consistently, those athletes will be ranked highly and will get starts.

As for an all US draft legal qualifier, that happened in 2008 in Tuscaloosa with 10 men and 10 women on the start line - quite different than 55 at the Olympics or 65-70 at a WCS. Its not something that USAT should invest their time in again.

And finally look back over the past 2 years and see how many male (don't have time to do female athletes right now) US athletes have raced ITU events and where they have finished:
Chrabot: 11 ITU WCS races (out of 16) Top 10s: 9th, 4th, 5th
Shoemaker: 14 ITU WCS races Top 10s: 8th, 9th, 7th, 7th, 8th
Huerta: 8 ITU WCS races Top 10s: none
Kemper: 3 ITU WCS races Top 10s: 10th
Fretta: 7 ITU WCS races Top 10s: none
Brown: 2 ITU WCS races Top 10s: none
Collins: 4 ITU WCS races Top 10s: none
Billington: no ITU WCS races *****4th place U23 worlds 2011

These athletes raced World Cups, but obviously they were not performing at the races they were at. So now they should be on a start list for a WTS race?
Continental Cups ->World Cups ->World Triathlon Series Races

And a final series of questions for thought:
Is it USAT's fault that the athletes are not performing?
or is it the athletes fault that they are not performing?
if USAT were to give these athletes more money would they perform better, the same or worse?
or should USAT do what they have been doing and target their top performers and wait for their non-performers to perform and then fund them?
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Re: The deal with the San Diego Start List [northeastri] [ In reply to ]
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Did you not read this thread??If you did, i think you have a little reading comprehension problem..The major complaint is that Mark Fretta did make the start list, chasing points all around the world. He understands that Hunter can bump him off if he choses. He seems resigned to accepting that fate, as it was announced ahead of time. What his major complaint that you did not address in your ass kissing of USAT, is that he now gets thrown into limbo, where non qualified athletes now get to leap frog him if folks cancel their starts. I don't know how to spell it out any simpler, many have said this same thing over and over, but you seem to not get it for some reason. He should be put at the top of the list ahead of all the non start qualifiers, since he actually did qualify for a start. Under this system, athletes that got less points and did not make the start list, could easily end up better off than athletes that did make the list. Now in your apparently expert opinion, how is that fair or equitable???
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Re: The deal with the San Diego Start List [monty] [ In reply to ]
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It's not quite as simple as you're making it out to be. Several of these "non qualified" athletes (Billington, Brown, etc...) are ranked far ahead of Fretta on the ITU points list. Fretta got on the start list in San Diego because he was at Yokohama, not because of accumulated ITU points. Now I'm not gonna say who deserves and who doesn't deserve to be on the starting line at San Diego. All I'm saying is there are a lot of ins-and-outs, and several athletes can make sane and reasonable arguments that they should be on the starting line in San Diego.

The root of this problem is that the ITU and USAT use multiple rankings systems, and it causes mass confusion. One athlete "should" be at San Diego according to one ranking system (WCS points in "2012"... I use quotes because Yokohama happened in 2011), and other athletes "should" be at San Diego because of another ranking system (total ITU points). And then there's Hunter, who just had the bad luck of getting taken out and injured by a yahoo in Myrtle Beach last year. Are you gonna tell Hunter Kemper that he doesn't deserve to be at Olympic trials because some yahoo, who was a lap behind on the bike, got in his way and injured him? I know I wouldn't want to tell Hunter that.
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